Do Volt drivers drive more EV miles than Leaf owners ?

[DaveinOlyWA]

Volt miles, LEAF miles? why are we comparing cars purchased for two completely different reasons? its a fools game.

lets compare the gas miles in a Volt verses gas miles in a LEAF?? not comparable you say??

NOW you are catching on!

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

+1

Ha ha, good one!

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

I don't understand all the bickering on this thread. There's no point debating which is better, volt or leaf, when the winner has been clearly established: volt AND leaf!

 

[TimLee]

I don't understand all the bickering on this thread. There's no point debating which is better, volt or leaf, when the winner has been clearly established: volt AND leaf!

+1
A silly debate.
The Volt is clearly an electric vehicle, until the ICE starts.
People that either wanted the flexibility of a single vehicle and / or had somewhat longer commutes and could live with the smaller size of the Volt, did what was smart for them and bought the Volt.
People that were able to make the LEAF work for their commute, or committed to do all electric whatever it took, or that want the larger space of the LEAF, they bought the LEAF.
With the nominal 40 to 60 mile range of the LEAF, its not very surprising that the LEAF selecting eV Project participants would probably be biased to lower average miles, where the LEAF range is less of a concern.
Why all the debate over something so non-surprising? :? :?

 

[LKK]

Volt miles, LEAF miles? why are we comparing cars purchased for two completely different reasons? its a fools game.

lets compare the gas miles in a Volt verses gas miles in a LEAF?? not comparable you say??

NOW you are catching on!

This is a good point. I wonder if anyone has undertaken a study to see the total average electric and gas miles driven each day by Volt and Leaf owners. Of course for Leaf owners this would have to include miles driven in an secondary ICE powered vehicle. I'm willing to bet the Leaf's extra range will result in significantly lower number of gas miles but not low enough to negate the need for a second car for most Leaf owners.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

This debate was ripped out of the Aug sales thread.

Probably ignited by the jump in Volt sales, but that's driven by the price drop and the deals to be had from excess inventory.

I'd rather get some QCs for a range extender than still have ICE maintenance. But that's just me.

 

[smkettner]

If LEAF had a real world 100 mile range as Nissan promised we could drive more.
If Nissan would put in a real 150 mile battery in the LEAF, the Volt would not stand a chance.
JMHO

I am just over 46 electric miles per day in my LEAF. I know it would be higher if I had more range.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

If LEAF had a real world 100 mile range as Nissan promised we could drive more.
If Nissan would put in a real 150 mile battery in the LEAF, the Volt would not stand a chance.
JMHO

I am just over 46 electric miles per day in my LEAF. I know it would be higher if I had more range.

I agree that range is the primary issue with all EVs. But that factors into cost. Batteries are still so expensive, heavy and large that its hard to extend range while making an affordable vehicle. Tesla has done it best by taking the price hit for range then making a premium car around it. GM is taking the opposite approach with the ELR, very expensive with even less range than the Volt.
I'd love to see a Leaf with >100 mile EPA range. Will also be interesting to see if GM manages to increase the Volt v2's range to 50-60 miles as Akerson said and lower the price by $10k (from 2013 MY prices). Current Volt focuses on its ICE too much.

 

[smkettner]

Yes Tesla has an optional 25kW for $10,000. I would pay same for adding 25kW to the LEAF.
Too bad LEAF was not designed around having an optional larger battery. I would even give up the lower portion of the rear storage area.

 

[jswilson]

Interesting discussion here... However, from a traffic, infrastructure, cost, and environment point of view, shouldn't the goal be to limit the miles driven by our cars, should they be BEVs, PHEVs, Hybrids or ICEs? After all, the more we drive our cars, the more roads we need, the more raw materials we need, etc, etc...

 

[TimLee]

Interesting discussion here... However, from a traffic, infrastructure, cost, and environment point of view, shouldn't the goal be to limit the miles driven by our cars, should they be BEVs, PHEVs, Hybrids or ICEs? After all, the more we drive our cars, the more roads we need, the more raw materials we need, etc, etc...

Valid point.
As a retired person, I could limit my driving to one day a week, or two days at most.
But I don't.
I will not stop my once or occasionally twice a week trip to downtown Chattanooga, +35 miles round trip, once or twice a week for Chattanooga Engineers Club Meeting or other engineering society meetings. And public transportation is not a very reasonable option from my home.
But I could shop once a week, and cut out all the trips for fast food or a single item here or there, etc.
Agree that we should all think like people living in the remote areas 100+ years ago in the USA, where a trip to town was a long voyage powered by horses, and was very costly, and wasn't done but once every week at most, and in many cases once a month at most.
We all love to drive too much!!! :shock:

 

[TimLee]

If LEAF had a real world 100 mile range as Nissan promised we could drive more.
If Nissan would put in a real 150 mile battery in the LEAF, the Volt would not stand a chance.

Somewhat true. But Nissan was shooting for AFFORDABLE.
The nominal 40 to 60 mile range of a LEAF is a problem for many people and mass adoption of the technology.
But not near as big as the problem with battery capacity degradation and the huge "Everybody Is Unwilling To Talk About It" cost of battery replacement. And that's with a 24 kWh (~21.5 kWh usable battery pack).
A bigger battery will help on range, but it will make the real cost issue of battery replacement MUCH worse.

 

[ggcc]

Question:

For Emergency the LEAF is out of battery, will it work if we buy a small generator (say 240V if available) to put in the trunk then we charge like the Volt while driving?

 

[TomT]

Except that a bigger battery would likely require less charge cycles than the current pack, which would slow degradation some, and would have enough reserve capacity that degradation would likely be a less critical issue and require fewer 100% charges and deeper DOD to maintain needed range, which only hastens degradation further...

A bigger battery will help on range, but it will make the real cost issue of battery replacement MUCH worse.

 

[TomT]

It's been discussed many times here before but, yes, all other considerations aside, it would work except that you could not charge while driving, the car would have to be stopped. The Leaf will not allow the car to go in to Ready when charging...

For Emergency the LEAF is out of battery, will it work if we buy a small generator (say 240V if available) to put in the trunk then we charge like the Volt while driving?

 

[TimLee]

Except that a bigger battery would likely require less charge cycles than the current pack, which would slow degradation some, and would have enough reserve capacity that degradation would likely be a less critical issue and require fewer 100% charges and deeper DOD to maintain needed range, which only hastens degradation further...

A bigger battery will help on range, but it will make the real cost issue of battery replacement MUCH worse.

True.
Possible that 85 kWh Tesla S pack may last quite a bit longer if not 100% charged and allowed to slowly drop down to 35% before charging, or kept in the 35% to 50% range for improved battery life.
And the problem with degraded capacity 24 kWh LEAF pack is that once it degrades, most will charge to 100% a lot more, and will unavoidably cycle it down to LBW or lower before recharging.

 

[TomT]

Which is exactly what I am experiencing. I used to charge to 100% maybe once a month when it was new as 80% was fine for most-all I needed the car to do... Now, to do the same routes, I find
that I usually need to charge to 100% even though I am going somewhat slower and dipping further in to the bottom of the pack... My 100% charges are now something like 12 times a month...

And the problem with degraded capacity 24 kWh LEAF pack is that once it degrades, most will charge to 100% a lot more, and will unavoidably cycle it down to LBW or lower before recharging.

 

[Stoaty]

Interesting discussion here... However, from a traffic, infrastructure, cost, and environment point of view, shouldn't the goal be to limit the miles driven by our cars, should they be BEVs, PHEVs, Hybrids or ICEs? After all, the more we drive our cars, the more roads we need, the more raw materials we need, etc, etc...

Agree 100%. The real metric should be whether Volt or Leaf drivers put in the least number of miles driven, including their use of both ICE vehicles and PHEV or BEV. That should be the real goal. If the Volt drivers put in more EV miles because they drive a lot more miles annually than Leaf owners, that is hardly something to celebrate or brag about.

I suggest the best comparison would be annual GHG production from driving for each household including all vehicles owned/driven:

--life cycle contributions to GHG from manufacture of the vehicle(s) owned
--GHG from electricity source used
--GHG from ICE vehicle operation

 

[TomT]

Our total annual mileage is virtually the same as it was prior to the Leaf...

Agree 100%. The real metric should be whether Volt or Leaf drivers put in the least number of miles driven, including their use of both ICE vehicles and PHEV or BEV.

 

[Stoaty]

Our total annual mileage is virtually the same as it was prior to the Leaf...

Mine too, which means an 80% reduction of gasoline used for driving.