Do Volt drivers drive more EV miles than Leaf owners ?

[CarZin]

I could argue the Volt is more electric than the Leaf, since apparently the average Volt owner drives more electric miles per day than the average Leaf owner.

 

[LEAFfan]

I could argue the Volt is more electric than the Leaf, since apparently the average Volt owner drives more electric miles per day than the average Leaf owner.

LOL, very funny. Try again. A PHEV is what it is, you can't change it to a BEV. :mrgreen:

 

[CarZin]

I wouldn't want to.

 

[scottf200]

Sour grapes, perhaps?...

Title: August Best Selling Month Ever For EVs; Chevy Volt To Be First Plug-In To Pass 3,000 Mark
http://insideevs.com/august-best-selling-month-ever-for-evs-chevy-volt-to-be-first-plug-in-to-pass-3000-mark/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sorry, but the Volt is a hybrid, not an EV. So it is the first plug-in hybrid to pass the 3K mark. You're comparing apples to oranges with the LEAF. Your comparison should be with other plug-in hybrids such as the PIP.

I'm just as proud of my 25,001 electric drive miles from the grid as any LEAF owner. Heck there are many LEAF and Volt owners in the same household and they charge from the same source. Their electric miles are the "same". Volt is a 40 mile BEV on hard accel or up to 100MPH and that was the goal. Listen to the interview I posted in the Volt thread if you don't believe me!!

 

[Deleted member 9549]

I could argue the Volt is more electric than the Leaf, since apparently the average Volt owner drives more electric miles per day than the average Leaf owner.

This is a statement often repeated to bolster the Volt, however, despite repeatedly asking, I haven't seen anyone provide justification for this statement. I have in contrast shown stats from Nissan and GM that clearly show Leaf owners drive as many or more electric miles as Volt owners.

 

[SanDust]

This is a statement often repeated to bolster the Volt, however, despite repeatedly asking, I haven't seen anyone provide justification for this statement. I have in contrast shown stats from Nissan and GM that clearly show Leaf owners drive as many or more electric miles as Volt owners.

Other than the official DOE study, you're right, there is no evidence. :roll:

I've looked at your posts on this subject and haven't found that you've provided any "stats from Nissan and GM that clearly show Leaf owners drive as many or more electric miles as Volt owners." The best you were able to do was to say that voltstats.net showed the average Volt owner drove a little over 30 electric miles a day and that this was less than what you drove. Surfingslovak tried to help you out but he pointed out that while total electric miles driven by Leaf and Volt drivers were similar the numbers for the Leaf were based on all Leafs worldwide not just the Leafs in North America. If you control for number the Volt would have more zero emission miles per vehicle, though with all the Leafs in Japan that don't many miles this would not be a fair comparison.

So what evidence from Nissan and GM are we talking about here?

 

[Deleted member 9549]

This is a statement often repeated to bolster the Volt, however, despite repeatedly asking, I haven't seen anyone provide justification for this statement. I have in contrast shown stats from Nissan and GM that clearly show Leaf owners drive as many or more electric miles as Volt owners.

Other than the official DOE study, you're right, there is no evidence. :roll:

I've looked at your posts on this subject and haven't found that you've provided any "stats from Nissan and GM that clearly show Leaf owners drive as many or more electric miles as Volt owners." The best you were able to do was to say that voltstats.net showed the average Volt owner drove a little over 30 electric miles a day and that this was less than what you drove. Surfingslovak tried to help you out but he pointed out that while total electric miles driven by Leaf and Volt drivers were similar the numbers for the Leaf were based on all Leafs worldwide not just the Leafs in North America. If you control for number the Volt would have more zero emission miles per vehicle, though with all the Leafs in Japan that don't many miles this would not be a fair comparison.

So what evidence from Nissan and GM are we talking about here?

Can you provide a link to the DOE study you mention.

Voltstats.net shows average Volt owner drove a little per 30 electric miles a day.
Nissan stating average Leaf owner drives 37 miles a day. http://green.autoblog.com/2011/10/28/nissan-claims-average-leaf-is-driven-37-miles-per-day-more-rang/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I agree with that you said surfingslovak said, stats showing total miles is misleading since almost half of Leaf sales are overseas with generally lower miles driven on average regardless of electric or not.

 

[SanDust]

Can you provide a link to the DOE study you mention.

Voltstats.net shows average Volt owner drove a little per 30 electric miles a day.
Nissan stating average Leaf owner drives 37 miles a day. http://green.autoblog.com/2011/10/28/nissan-claims-average-leaf-is-driven-37-miles-per-day-more-rang/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Your Nissan number is way off. Your claim that the average Leaf driver goes 37 miles a day is consistent with the headline for the article but quite contrary to what was actually said. Mark Perry didn't say that Nissan drivers drove 37 miles a day. He is quoted as saying that Leaf drivers in North America never go more than 37 miles a day. Less than 37 miles could be one mile or 36 miles. The average would be far less than 37 miles. Probably less than the 30 miles the average Volt driver might go. Let's put that one on whoever came up with the misleading headline.

I'm thinking that the DOE/Ecotality/INL study has been cited before somewhat ad naseum but since you've asked:
Leaf: http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/EVProj/EVProjectNissanLeafQ22013.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (4261 vehicles 8,040,300 miles)
Volt: http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/EVProj/EVProjectChevroletVoltQ22013.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (1895 vehicles 4,289,168 electric miles 1,463,842 gas miles)

Almost exactly what you'd predict based on the DOT daily driving study, which would be the second official data point.

Honestly though we'd be better forgetting all the Volt vs. Leaf junk and celebrate the fact that EVs have hit the 10,000 mark.

 

[jhm614]

Can you provide a link to the DOE study you mention.

I am one of those guys that believe you can make stats say anything but I think SanDust is referring to the EV Projects quarterly reports. You can find them here: http://www.theevproject.com/documents.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Specifically, if you open The 2013 2nd Quarter Report and look at pages C-2 and D-2, you will see that the average EV Project Leaf driver drives 29.5 miles per day and the average EV Project Volt driver covers 41 miles per day.

 

[GRA]

Sorry, but the Volt is a hybrid, not an EV. So it is the first plug-in hybrid to pass the 3K mark. You're comparing apples to oranges with the LEAF. Your comparison should be with other plug-in hybrids such as the PIP.

I think you've actually been featured in a movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Brian: "We mustn't fight each other. Surely we should be united against the common enemy!"

[All members of the People's Front of Judea and Campaign for a Free Galilee stop fighting each other, look around alertly]: "The Judean People's Front?!?"

Brian: "No, No! The _Romans_!"

Others, unenthusiastically: "Oh, yeah."

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

ROMANI ITE DOMUM!

 

[surfingslovak]

Specifically, if you open The 2013 2nd Quarter Report and look at pages C-2 and D-2, you will see that the average EV Project Leaf driver drives 29.5 miles per day and the average EV Project Volt driver covers 41 miles per day.

Yes, I just saw that too. Thanks for referencing the report. There is more where this came from. I think the following answers the original question more directly:

 

[evnow]

Almost exactly what you'd predict based on the DOT daily driving study, which would be the second official data point.

Can you explain this statement and show what data you would use to predict what ?

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Can you provide a link to the DOE study you mention.

I am one of those guys that believe you can make stats say anything but I think SanDust is referring to the EV Projects quarterly reports. You can find them here: http://www.theevproject.com/documents.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Specifically, if you open The 2013 2nd Quarter Report and look at pages C-2 and D-2, you will see that the average EV Project Leaf driver drives 29.5 miles per day and the average EV Project Volt driver covers 41 miles per day.

Thanks for the link. I've read through it and am surprised at the reported low mileage for the Leaf. Some rough math that seems to average only 7547mi/yr for Leafs vs 12144mi/yr for Volts. Sounds amazingly low. Everyone would get a 10k mi lease and have tons to spare.

Also of note, the average Volt was reported at 41mi/day of which 74.6% was electric, which comes out to 30.6 mi electric vs 29.5 for the Leaf. Still more than the Leaf but pretty close.

The Leaf number seems unrealistically low. Maybe a self-selection bias. Folks overly worried about the Leafs range only get it for really short commutes? It doesn't match my experience with any of the people I know that have Leafs. Does anyone here drive their Leafs that little?

The Volt mileage of 41mi/day seems to contradict GM's own premise for the Volt, that 78% of commuters travel less than 40 miles a day. If true, how did the average end up over 40 miles/day?

[Math: Assuming constant # of cars through study, for Leaf: 8040300 total miles, 4261 cars, 3 months. (total miles)/(number of cars) * 4 = 7547. For Volt: 5753009 total miles, 1895 cars, 3 months = 12144]

 

[KJD]

Not sure I see the purpose of this thread.

I would be more interested if to compare Cruze miles to Volt miles.

On the Nissan side how about we compare Altima miles to LEAF miles.

Now make those same comparisons to Sales numbers.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/search/label/US%20Auto%20Sales?max-results=5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[surfingslovak]

The Leaf number seems unrealistically low. Maybe a self-selection bias. Folks overly worried about the Leafs range only get it for really short commutes? It doesn't match my experience with any of the people I know that have Leafs. Does anyone here drive their Leafs that little?

The Volt mileage of 41mi/day seems to contradict GM's own premise for the Volt, that 78% of commuters travel less than 40 miles a day. If true, how did the average end up over 40 miles/day?

If I recall correctly, Nissan informed several owners that the annual fleet average in Phoenix was 7,500 miles last year. Many thought that this is unrealistically low, and I would tend to agree. That said, the EV Project is not based on self-selection. Everyone who applied for a home Blink station, has automatically opted in. One of the conditions was that this data must be collected and shared with the public. So here we are. Why is that number so low? I honestly don't know. Perhaps the self-selection you mentioned occurred before a decision was made to buy a Volt or a LEAF. Wasn't that Reg's original premise? There is a chance that the data transmission from the vehicle wasn't particularly reliable, but we are grasping at straws here, I'm afraid.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

The Leaf number seems unrealistically low. Maybe a self-selection bias. Folks overly worried about the Leafs range only get it for really short commutes? It doesn't match my experience with any of the people I know that have Leafs. Does anyone here drive their Leafs that little?

The Volt mileage of 41mi/day seems to contradict GM's own premise for the Volt, that 78% of commuters travel less than 40 miles a day. If true, how did the average end up over 40 miles/day?

That said, the EV Project is not based on self-selection... Perhaps the self-selection you mentioned occurred before a decision was made to buy a Volt or a LEAF. Wasn't that Reg's original premise?

I misspoke when I implied a bias in the study, I meant to imply that folks who drive a lot would consider the Volt over a Leaf. I would be curious to see a survey of Leaf owners here to see typical mileage distribution. I've created a new poll to try and find out...http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=14217" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[surfingslovak]

I would be curious to see a survey of Leaf owners here to see typical mileage distribution. I've created a new poll to try and find out...http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=14217" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Right, understood. I already participated in your survey. Curious to see the results. That said, we don't know how representative the active MNL user base is of the entire LEAF owner population. We had this discussion in spades last year, particularly when we tried to make sense of some of the field data related to battery longevity.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

I'm averaging 28.6 miles/day, but I'm not in the EV project. If we had QC here, that might be different. But I can live without it. I didn't get a Volt, partly because it was too small, but also way more expensive at the time, and I didn't want a car that could use gas in any way. It's 40 mile EV range is probably less than 30 here in the winter.

 

[jhm614]

I have covered 46,403 miles in 888 days, so I am averaging about 52.25 miles per day. This makes sense, my round trip commute is 56 miles and I usually do a little driving on the weekend, too. (This also means I have saved about $3,300 in electricity vs. gas spending - or about $3.70 per day)