Considering buying used but.....

[KBS1]

Sorry if this is off topic... but this looked like the most relevant thread.

I am looking at a 2013 'S' with quick-charge package at 16k miles in California. Excellent condition. 12 bars on the battery.
Is anyone here willing to venture a guess that what this is worth, private party sale for cash? What are the dangers that I need to look for here? Thanks.

 

[cwerdna]

Sorry if this is off topic... but this looked like the most relevant thread.

I am looking at a 2013 'S' with quick-charge package at 16k miles in California. Excellent condition. 12 bars on the battery.
Is anyone here willing to venture a guess that what this is worth, private party sale for cash? What are the dangers that I need to look for here? Thanks.

Don't know about the value, but beware of this crap:
http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/11/buyers-beware-this-is-must-read.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/12/update-saga-of-vin-222-resolved.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (resolution)

Find out where the car has resided before.

Can you update your location info via User Control Panel (near top) > Profile (left side)? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

What are your daily driving needs in terms of miles? How much city vs. highway? Will you have the ability to charge at your work/destinations?

I have no idea on the price. But, at minimum, you need to find out what '15 Leaf S w/charge package are going for (somewhere below MSRP) and take off $10K ($7500 Federal tax credit and $2500 CVRP (https://energycenter.org/clean-vehicle-rebate-project" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false), as that's how much you'd pay for a new '15 S. Then, take a few grand off that, since the car's used, has less warranty remaining and has more battery degradation than a new one.

 

[Moof]

Sorry if this is off topic... but this looked like the most relevant thread.

I am looking at a 2013 'S' with quick-charge package at 16k miles in California. Excellent condition. 12 bars on the battery.
Is anyone here willing to venture a guess that what this is worth, private party sale for cash? What are the dangers that I need to look for here? Thanks.

My guess is ~$15-16k, but starting with a 2015 S cost in your area minus a few k is excellent advice. Check what sort of prices you can get from Carmax for your region as a baseline, subtract another 1k for a private party sale (still better than they will get as a trade-in) Get a carfax on it to see if it has been in any accidents or has any other flags. Ask for records of the annual battery tests so you don't run into any warranty hassles down the road.

Be warned that the 12th bar can mean a wide range of things. You have 12 bars from roughly 85-100% capacity, and you can't tell if you are about to lose a bar at 85%, or sitting pretty at 95% without LeafSpy plus an bluetooth scan widget for about $25-30 total. LeafSpy is worth getting if you are planning on getting Leaf regardless. Battery degradation is very strongly influenced by temperature, so be sober about buying a 2011-2014 if you are in a particularly hot part of California. 2015 got new chemistry, but there is no way to know for sure how much better it is at this point.

Check the tires carefully, the factory Ecopias may already be balding on the shoulder at even 16k miles depending on what pressure the owner has been keeping in them. Don't find yourself needing fresh tires much sooner than expected.

Read up on the gripes people have with the Leaf. A fair number of the little ones were addressed in the 2013 model year, but not all. Especially read up about battery degradation horror stories and make sure you will not be cranky about in a few years when you are down 20-30% and out of capacity warranty. Read up about the GOM, lack of spare tire, heater power consumption (S model does not have a heat pump heater), tire wear, tire rotation schedule, goofy brake fluid flush schedule, cabin air filter replacement headaches, non-telescoping steering wheel, etc.

It is a great little car, just do you homework to avoid buyers remorse later for something you could have easily known in advance.

 

[Zoey2011]

I believe your wife would LOVE a Leaf. Lifestyle and driving habits matter. I am female, I love mine. Just got mine, here is my story...

I just took the plunge as of 12/31/14. I purchased a used (prior lease) 2011 Leaf SL, light blue, cream interior, and named her Zoey. She has just over 14K miles. I paid $12,500, plus tax, etc. Came to $13,987 total. It did not come with the OEM SD card, so that will cost me another $300 (always include that in deal if buying used. I found out too late). Zoey only spent 18 months on the road during her prior lease period. She was built in 2011 but didn't get on the road until December of 2012. She started life in Texas. I found her in Atlanta. She was bought at auction in Texas by a used car dealer in October of 2014. So I did not get her from a dealership.

Here is my first real-world driving experience, and my assessment of how "Range Anxiety" may be a permanent condition for me going into 2015...

I charged Zoey up in the garage last night, standard home outlet. She was fully charged when I left home, and her "meter" said I had 91 miles to work with.

I went on an errand roundtrip to one destination, total trip was 41 miles per MaqQuest, all surface streets, doing b/t 38 and 45 mph the whole way. I had the heat on for a bit intermittently. I had the headlights on (it's cold and rainy here today which is Jan. 2nd). When I got back to my house, the meter said I had 19 miles left to work with.

Wow. So how's that for a math problem? 91-41 = 19??? I had read a lot about losing charge and range discrepancy, etc., but was not expecting this much of a loss of range on such a short trip. I came up "missing" about 31 miles of range. I have read so much on this subject I have a headache and still can't tell if Zoey is normal or not. She's in the garage charging up again now.

I do need to slow down and get rid of my lead foot. My daily commute is usually about 35 miles per day roundtrip. My employer is putting in charging stations. They will either be free, or we will need access cards which will have a nice subsidy from the company.

I was going to buy a MiniCooper as a 2nd car. I have not had a cute fun car since 1988. Then the company announcement came out and I changed my mind. Just FYI, in 2005 I was a GreaseCar driver, with a 1982 Mercedes 240D that I modified myself. So I have known for a long time that alternate fuel vehicles were in my destiny. I am flexible about a certain amount of hassle to save money, and Zoey is my 2nd car. My first car is a 2003 Honda Element, which I use like a truck and need to keep.

:mrgreen:

 

[Moof]

Zoey sounds typical. Here are some things to keep in mind:

#1 The distance to empty gauge (DTE, aka GOM) is mostly garbage. It will start optimistic, then finishes pessimistic. The algorithm appears to be a blend between the marketing department of Nissan demanding the fully charged car shows eye popping range on startup using optimistic efficiency estimate, while the lawyers and engineers want the bottom end to strongly encourage you not to get stranded, so they fudge the bottom end as well. Both desires were mixed with a chimpanzee flinging feces every time it detects you went up or down a hill to round out the algorithm. At the low battery warning and "8" showing I still had ~25% battery remaining for example. The "fuel" bars are a better indication of remaining battery than the DTE number, but they are not entirely linear and it is a pretty coarse display.

#2 Cold wet conditions can very easily cause you to be 25% less efficient than in warm dry conditions. 4.5 mi/kwh efficiency was typical in summer for my work commute. I get 4-4.2'ish preheated with zero heater usage in the 30's to low 40's on dry roads, and ~3.5 if I don't pre-heat and set the temp to 62 F on recirculate on the lowest fan setting with minimal defrost usage on wet roads in the 30's. On a recent airport run we went 48 miles using about 75% of the charge, getting only 3.5 mi/kwh thanks to heavy heater usage (cold/wet on the way back, using more heater once it was clear we would have no problem getting home).

#3 Take an afternoon and really figure out what she will really do down at the bottom end. After your normal routine drive around the area till you are down to 10-15 miles, then stay around your neighborhood at your normal driving pace. Stay within a couple miles of your house once you hit the low battery warning, and just within the neighboring few blocks once you hit the very low battery warning. See how many miles you can squeeze out before hitting the turtle mode and then pull into your driveway. It will give you a much clearer picture how much you have to work with if you ever need to push it.

#4 Driving style matter a lot if you want to maximize range. Follow with some extra distance and use slow steady breaking to get the most out of regen breaking. Don't floor it off the line. If you have a normal commute, reset the efficiency on every trip and play with your driving style to maximize your efficiency, then apply those lessons elsewhere. When in doubt, drive like a nun on the way there, then have fun driving home if you have plenty left in the battery.

#5 The SD card has the map data. Most folks find the navigation system to be pretty lame and don't use it. I have used mine just twice in 5 months, and I have no intention to use it any more. The SD card should have come with the car, it is locked to the car and is not useful to anyone else. Likely the dealer lost it (or someone else in the whole dealer->auction->dealer chain). Feel free to harass them mercilously to try to get them to foot the bill for losing it.

 

[Zoey2011]

Thanks Moof, your description under no. 1 really makes sense to me. It's the best one I've read in weeks.

On Jan 1 I did drive her from a local hotel (where my hubby and I spent the night after party) to home, and when I hit the subdivision entrance Zoey was down to 9 miles on the meter. I had my SO with me so I decided not to do what you suggested - putter around the neighborhood and see how far I could go before she "turtled". My SO has limited patience with that sort of thing, he lived thru my grease car phase and does not remember it fondly...but I will do as you suggest in the near future.

Yes, that whole SD thing really burnt my butt... I didn't realize until too late that the radio won't work without it... and it controls the HVAC (it works but you can't see the settings), and a couple other things. And I had NO idea it would be such a hassle to replace.... Because I bought her "as is" I will probably have to eat the $300 for the replacement card. The manager where I bought her actually thought the radio would work without the card.... I don't think he's blowing smoke, I tend to think he really believed that, but then again he said he would get back to me today about a replacement and I have heard nada since 10:30 this morning. Oh well.

Thanks for the pointers. I am happy with her and I'm sure I will eventually move to a newer model at some point in the future. It certainly beats grease car driving.... I don't miss the mess and aggravation of that at all.

 

[stevensdrums]

My wife and I are ourselves in the exact same situation as Zoey2011.

A few days ago, we bought ($12,471) a blue 2001 SL that had been a lease with 13k miles. Basically the same car as ZOEY!

After driving for a few days we saw that we would immediately use 3-5 miles of range pulling out of our neighborhood (.5-1mile) And the range would drop way faster than our actual miles driven. I jumped on the forum this morning to find out what is happening.

MOOF - Thank you for your response. It was raining all day yesterday as well (which is rare here in LA).

The Toyota (pre owned cars) dealership that we bought it from kept the SD card and the charging cord for each Leaf on the lot in the office (and not in the car on the lot - for fear of being stolen). So when we test drove the car, we asked him to go get the SD card. We found out after we bought the car that it only had one key, so we have to get another one.

We had a EVSE installed at the house this week as well so we are able to get a full charge in 3-4 hours. We bought a AeroVironment EV Charger: 25' cable, 30A, 7.2kW on AMAZON for $900. We will qualify for a $750 rebate from LADWP. The cost of the install from our electrician was $900. It could have been at least half the cost if the EVSE was closer to our electrical box, but they literally could not be further and still be attached to our house. Oh well - that is just the lay of the land at our house.

Really excited to have finally made the leap!

 

[Zoey2011]

Just an update on Zoey. I so love this car....

I was such a newbie I had not found her ECO mode when I posted. Now that I have, my range anxiety is gone. I have figured out how to drive her with the heat on and still have range miles to spare in case I need to run errands after I get home from work. I haven't been down in the "red bar zone" since Jan 1st.

About winter driving: I read that some folks are preheating their cars in the garage. I have not found that to be necessary. Electric cars don't have to wait for the engine to warm up for the heater to work. So once I hit the road in this cold, the cabin is nice and toasty after about 3-4 minutes of running the heater. Way faster than my ICE vehicle.

Turning the heat on "costs" about 10 range miles, but it doesn't matter how hard the blower is running after that. So I put the heat on full blast until I'm warmed up, then shut it off to get the miles back. If I don't need the miles back, I keep the blower on low to keep my ankles warm the entire trip. Once I turn off the heat totally, I get my 10 miles back.

I have not bought gas since December 31, 2014. This has been such a great idea for me.

Update on the missing SD card - My loser used car dealer isn't going to help me get one at all. So, I called Courtesy Nissan in Texas. They charge $300 for it. My local dealership wants $400 for it. I'm missing the radio a lot, and it would be nice to have the visual controls for the heat and A/C. I'm saving up to get the card. In the meantime, I ordered an $18 temporary portable USB powered radio that will fit into the console space under the dash.

I also found a leather steering wheel cover that fits perfectly, I put that on yesterday. Took a while to find it on the internet. LEAF steering wheels are not a standard size, they are 13.5 to 14.5 inches. The cover I found was the right color (gray) and not expensive. Looks nice.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Just an update on Zoey. I so love this car....

I was such a newbie I had not found her ECO mode when I posted. Now that I have, my range anxiety is gone. I have figured out how to drive her with the heat on and still have range miles to spare in case I need to run errands after I get home from work. I haven't been down in the "red bar zone" since Jan 1st.

If you aren't using the bottom two charge bars you are leaving quite a bit of range unused. If you don't need it, fine. But even when you get to the "Low Battery Warning" (LBW) you still have quite a bit of range. It is only when you get to "Very Low Battery Warning" (VLBW) that you need to think about getting to a charge station.

[Technical note: if you don't have the SD card I presume that the Nav system isn't working. That may mean that you won't get the voice LBW and VLBW alerts. In that case LBW will be when the GOM miles starts flashing and you get yellow warning symbols on the dash. At VLBW the GOM goes to "---". That's when you have only a few miles to find a charge station.]

About winter driving: I read that some folks are preheating their cars in the garage. I have not found that to be necessary. Electric cars don't have to wait for the engine to warm up for the heater to work. So once I hit the road in this cold, the cabin is nice and toasty after about 3-4 minutes of running the heater. Way faster than my ICE vehicle.

The main advantage of preheating while plugged-in is that it doesn't deplete the battery and that can make quite a difference in range. It is also nice to get into a warm car in very cold weather.

Turning the heat on "costs" about 10 range miles, but it doesn't matter how hard the blower is running after that. So I put the heat on full blast until I'm warmed up, then shut it off to get the miles back. If I don't need the miles back, I keep the blower on low to keep my ankles warm the entire trip. Once I turn off the heat totally, I get my 10 miles back.

You are apparently basing your range on the estimated distance display. This is called the "Guess-o-Meter" (GOM) here because it can be wildly inaccurate (as Moof explained in another thread). The GOM can't know whether you plan to go uphill or downhill, how fast you plan to drive in the future — faster driving means less range — what the wind and weather will be like, and so forth. To base your ideas of range on the GOM is not a good idea. If you want an accurate fuel gauge you can get an aftermarket meter of some sort and use that to estimate your range based on how efficiently you drive (miles/kWh). But it sounds as if range is not limiting for your purposes, so the fuel bars may suffice for now.

 

[Zoey2011]

Thank you for the tips dgpcolorado. Zoey is definitely curing me of my lead foot.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Thank you for the tips dgpcolorado. Zoey is definitely curing me of my lead foot.

At the risk of "too much information", there is a reason that faster driving decreases range. Above about 30 mph most of the energy used in driving the car is used to overcome aerodynamic drag, i.e. "pushing the air out of the way". Since drag increases at about the square of velocity, going faster greatly increases the energy loss to drag. So, drag losses at 60 mph are four times as great as at 30 mph. The reason I mention this is because if you do find yourself low on charge you can extend your range by driving more slowly. Sometimes a longer but slower route will take less charge than a shorter faster one. The maximum range of the LEAF can be obtained at about 12 mph, although the difference between that very slow speed and 25 mph is fairly small.

If you haven't already done so, you might want to take a look at Tony Williams' Range Charts.

Your 2011 LEAF has likely lost considerable battery capacity due to heat and age, so you might want to use the 75% battery capacity version of the chart: 75% chart for a battery that has 10 of 12 capacity bar segments.

You can get a rough idea of the capacity of your battery by the number of Capacity Bars displayed on the dash. Those are the narrow bars next to the wide fuel bars; the bottom two are colored red, as you've noticed before. A new LEAF will have 12 CBs, which represents about 100% to 85% of capacity. A LEAF with 11 CBs will have a capacity of about 85% to 79%. 10 CBs: ~79% to 72%. 9 CBs: ~72% to 66%. [If you get to eight Capacity Bars or fewer, and the car is less than 60 months old with less than 60k miles, you likely would qualify for a free replacement battery under the warranty.]

Regardless of how many Capacity Bars you have you should always get twelve fuel bars when the LEAF is fully charged. But as the capacity of the battery gradually declines with age each fuel bar will represent a bit less in charge.

 

[Moof]

...The GOM can't know whether you plan to go uphill or downhill, how fast you plan to drive in the future...

I guess my point is that the GOM is actually worse than you describe. As best I can tell the displayed range is roughly:

At startup in ECO:
GOM=(Capacity-2 kWh)*6mi/kWh

At startup in D:
GOM=(Capacity-2 kWh)*5.4mi/kWh

After 15-20 miles in D if you are getting 4 mi/kWh:
GOM=(Capacity-2 kWh)*4mi/kWh

After 15-20 miles in ECO if you are getting 4 mi/kWh over the last few miles:
GOM=(Capacity-2 kWh)*1.1*4mi/kWh

After a couple hundred feet elevation on a 6% grade hill:
At startup in D:
GOM=(Capacity-2 kWh)*2.5mi/kWh

I can understand keeping the reserve, however by choosing an eye popping initial efficiency estimate instead of consistently using recent history you end up with these persistent freakouts over the range dropping 5 miles by time you get a mile down the road. Nothing will help the mountain dwellers, but plenty of near flatlanders end up rather shocked when they cannot come even close to the displayed hundred odd miles despite only doing modest city driving with just a little freeway. I am convinced that the way Nissan handled the GOM really amplifies range anxiety rather unnecessarily. Folks end up having their new cars towed halfway home with over half a charge because they saw the GOM go from 110 to 27 and assume they used 75% of their battery when they likely used under half, really rather sad.

The things that really stick in my craw is the start up number which appears to be slightly influenced by recent driving, but mostly by the outside air temperature, or maybe a magic 8-ball. Given all the downloaded data to Nissan they should easily be able to use a number from the last ~100 miles of your actual driving as the initial estimate, but they instead start with a wildly optimistic number instead. I am pretty darn sure this is to help move vehicles off the lot more than anything else. Next, the ECO mode efficiency used to calculate a number appears to never quite converge on your actual efficiency, instead it appears that as they keep the original +10% range expectation above what your recent ECO driving actually indicates. The Carwings website chronically displays very different efficiencies than the dash as well, which after 4 years really baffles me (perhaps they farmed out the code and nobody there knows how to maintain it?).

Basically the instrument cluster has had ever last number or piece of data run through a cartoon filter before being displayed. The speedometer is chronically high, the capacity bars are grossly inequal despite equal appearance, whatever the heck the trees are supposed to mean, etc. It is a great little car, but some of the missteps around the instrument cluster, the 2011/2012 heater control, and the lackluster navigation system really baffle me compared to the rest of the execution.

 

[TimLee]

...
Update on the missing SD card - My loser used car dealer isn't going to help me get one at all. So, I called Courtesy Nissan in Texas. They charge $300 for it. My local dealership wants $400 for it. I'm missing the radio a lot, and it would be nice to have the visual controls for the heat and A/C. I'm saving up to get the card. In the meantime, I ordered an $18 temporary portable USB powered radio that will fit into the console space under the dash.
...

It is a shame you don't have the three pieces of data Unit Code, Serial number, and Confirmation code needed to order a map update SD card for $179.

http://www.navigation.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/Navteq-NissanNorthAmerica-Site/en_US/-/USD/ViewStandardCatalog-Browse?CatalogCategoryID=iM8KCghB9t4AAAEuFBFDJP3i&ShowAllProducts=YES&PersistNavigationMenu=YES" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With the nav working you get it by Menu Physical Button, On Right, Second from top
Select Info Button on screen
Select Navigation Version on screen, bottom right on 2011 LEAF

This gives Map Version, Program Version, Unit Code, Serial number, and Confirmation code.
But with no SD card I don't think any of that works.

Not sure whether the dealer just looks up the data in the Nissan system based on the VIN, or whether they have to plug into the unit to retrieve the data.

In either case a mighty high differential cost of $121 to $221 for less than five minutes of time.
Maybe the dealer would provide you the three pieces of data at no cost when you pay for your first annual battery test :?:
If all a dealer needs is the VIN to get the info you might find an on line Nissan parts supplier that is less $.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...I am convinced that the way Nissan handled the GOM really amplifies range anxiety rather unnecessarily. Folks end up having their new cars towed halfway home with over half a charge because they saw the GOM go from 110 to 27 and assume they used 75% of their battery when they likely used under half, really rather sad...

I agree. And that's why some of us here, including you, try to teach the newcomers to the LEAF not to place any reliance on the GOM, and why we reject any range claims based on it. It is clear from many posts here that it does, indeed, cause completely unnecessary range anxiety.