Pollux666
Active member
Thank you, kind sir!
RePo said:
Climate XChange Raffling off a new Tesla
- Thread starter Urs
- Start date
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NYLEAF
Well-known member
Sorry if this was already asked and answered, but what happens if the grand prize winner options out a less expensive Tesla? A base 70D, for example. I assume they still get the "no pain" tax benefit, but do they get to keep the difference between the actual cost of the car and the $100,000 that the prize is "worth" if the cash option were taken? Would the winner be allowed to buy a CPO or Inventory Tesla instead of a built to order brand new one? What would happen to the "savings" in that case?
DNAinaGoodWay
Well-known member
NYLEAF said:
I'm curious about this too. Not so much for used, because I'd lose the tax credit and state rebate, or the 70, because I'd want a 90, but if CXC is committed to a $104,950 payment to Tesla, could that money be used at the winner's discretion? Say, for a S or X (which has no configurator yet), but declining the HPWC and putting that $750 towards options, like the dual charger? (My present EVSE would do at home, but dual chargers would be handy on the road) likewise, the $500 slated for the now unneeded electrician, could it be applied to state taxes? Exicise tax would be over $2100 for the first year alone, plus sales tax, and insurance is sure to be a chunk.
As for CXC's mission, you're only at the beginning of trying to move a mountain. Are you planning on more attention getting raffles if this one succeeds? Every 3 or 6 months say? Curious too how you chose the $250 price point. Did you consider maybe 5000 $100 tickets? Not that I have any raffle experience. Just throwing that out there.
Pollux666
Active member
Hi, I thought about just this scenario the other day and don't have an answer for you yet. I've got to talk it over with our attorney.
That said, the raffle rules do make provision for buying a CPO or Inventory Tesla. The plan was that CXC would prepay Tesla for the whole $103K car + $1200 doc & delivery + $750 HPWC total $104,950. We'd prepay the winner $5500 = $5k towards state taxes + $500 towards electrician. All that totals $110,450. And we'd prepay US IRS $36,730 for grossed-up taxes on all the foregoing. Then it would just be a matter of time for the winner to finish configuring the order and lock it in, the vehicle then to be built and delivered at Tesla's pace. And I had pretty much naively assumed that the winner would build the maximum configuration the dollars would allow.
In general, Climate XChange will adopt the interpretation that is most favorable to the ticket purchasers / winners.
So... gonna hafta get back to you on this one.
Alan
That said, the raffle rules do make provision for buying a CPO or Inventory Tesla. The plan was that CXC would prepay Tesla for the whole $103K car + $1200 doc & delivery + $750 HPWC total $104,950. We'd prepay the winner $5500 = $5k towards state taxes + $500 towards electrician. All that totals $110,450. And we'd prepay US IRS $36,730 for grossed-up taxes on all the foregoing. Then it would just be a matter of time for the winner to finish configuring the order and lock it in, the vehicle then to be built and delivered at Tesla's pace. And I had pretty much naively assumed that the winner would build the maximum configuration the dollars would allow.
In general, Climate XChange will adopt the interpretation that is most favorable to the ticket purchasers / winners.
So... gonna hafta get back to you on this one.
Alan
NYLEAF said:
Pollux666
Active member
Hi, @DNAinaGoodWay,
As far as Climate XChange is concerned, the money paid to Tesla is fungible. So that $104,950 could be used however you choose. In one specific case, though, there's really no benefit: we pay the $1200 delivery & doc fee, which you're gonna hafta pay no matter what you do.
I suppose you could also take the $5500 we would send you ($5K towards state taxes, $500 towards electrician) and also toss that into the Tesla pot.
From the standpoint of prepaying the US withholding taxes, there's no difference.
We definitely took this scenario into account in advance. A "typical" person who wins probably will very much appreciate the wall charger and electrician and sense that the "complete package" has been taken care of. People who are much deeper into Tesla ownership may very well reconfigure the prize package in the way you suggest.
Alan
P.S. CXC mission -- The Wife and her pals have moved considerable foothills already. See MA Senate Bill 1747, https://malegislature.gov/Bills/189/Senate/S1747. That bill wouldn't exist today were it not for the reports & econometric models she and her pal commissioned, a lot of close work between Climate XChange and Senator Barrett's office and the Senator's efforts and even some other environmentalists. I say "even" because until foundations started taking an interest last fall, nearly all of the traditional environmentalists in Massachusetts slammed their doors in Jessica's face except for when they were denigrating the issue and condescending to her organization. So one big foothill that moved is now those traditional organizations are part of a carbon pricing coalition here in MA. And guess what moved them? Bringing in money. A stinking $250K caused 21 environmental/labor/whatever organizations to suddenly have a deep appreciation of the importance of carbon pricing. So Jessica and others continue their efforts through Climate XChange, other groups here in MA, Citizens Climate Lobby nationally.
More raffles -- just kill me now! Gotta get this one across the finish line and all six prizes safely delivered into the hands of the Winners. Not to mention all paperwork filed and tax payments made to MA within 10 days of drawing. (MA gets 5% of the gross. Not net. Not after expenses. Top-line. Ouch!)
$250 price point -- very tough discussions. Based on looking at other raffles, and looking at other raffles' odds and rewards, wound up concluding that we could price as high as $450/ticket. Based on psychology -- e.g., the weird price signals that happen when people see expensive things and automatically assume that they must be awesome -- we probably could have priced as high as $1000/ticket. But we wanted much broader participation. We wanted at least the possibility that a regular person -- someone who makes, say, $50K instead of $500K annually -- could decide to dig deep and fund this cause AND have a chance to win a Grand Prize they could AFFORD to win. Imagine making $50K/year and getting hit with a $27K tax withholding bill. No Tesla for you, pal! I felt very strongly that we had to build in the possibility that a regular person could win! I want someone to get into the CAR, not into the cash that's left over after Uncle Sam takes his withholding taxes out. There is nothing that "proves" that $250 is the right ticket price; it's our best attempt at balancing all the competing needs, including interests of the ticket purchasers, excellent prizes, fund raising, expenses.
Oh, and sorry, thought you asked whether we had considered 500 $1,000 tickets. You actually asked whether we considered 5,000 $100 tickets. And the answer is yes, we did. But as far as we can tell, ticket sales don't scale linearly up and down with price. We couldn't convince ourselves that we would be able to sell 5,000 tickets or anywhere near that number. I do have some ideas about a future raffle that might scale up in a much larger way.
As far as Climate XChange is concerned, the money paid to Tesla is fungible. So that $104,950 could be used however you choose. In one specific case, though, there's really no benefit: we pay the $1200 delivery & doc fee, which you're gonna hafta pay no matter what you do.
I suppose you could also take the $5500 we would send you ($5K towards state taxes, $500 towards electrician) and also toss that into the Tesla pot.
From the standpoint of prepaying the US withholding taxes, there's no difference.
We definitely took this scenario into account in advance. A "typical" person who wins probably will very much appreciate the wall charger and electrician and sense that the "complete package" has been taken care of. People who are much deeper into Tesla ownership may very well reconfigure the prize package in the way you suggest.
Alan
P.S. CXC mission -- The Wife and her pals have moved considerable foothills already. See MA Senate Bill 1747, https://malegislature.gov/Bills/189/Senate/S1747. That bill wouldn't exist today were it not for the reports & econometric models she and her pal commissioned, a lot of close work between Climate XChange and Senator Barrett's office and the Senator's efforts and even some other environmentalists. I say "even" because until foundations started taking an interest last fall, nearly all of the traditional environmentalists in Massachusetts slammed their doors in Jessica's face except for when they were denigrating the issue and condescending to her organization. So one big foothill that moved is now those traditional organizations are part of a carbon pricing coalition here in MA. And guess what moved them? Bringing in money. A stinking $250K caused 21 environmental/labor/whatever organizations to suddenly have a deep appreciation of the importance of carbon pricing. So Jessica and others continue their efforts through Climate XChange, other groups here in MA, Citizens Climate Lobby nationally.
More raffles -- just kill me now! Gotta get this one across the finish line and all six prizes safely delivered into the hands of the Winners. Not to mention all paperwork filed and tax payments made to MA within 10 days of drawing. (MA gets 5% of the gross. Not net. Not after expenses. Top-line. Ouch!)
$250 price point -- very tough discussions. Based on looking at other raffles, and looking at other raffles' odds and rewards, wound up concluding that we could price as high as $450/ticket. Based on psychology -- e.g., the weird price signals that happen when people see expensive things and automatically assume that they must be awesome -- we probably could have priced as high as $1000/ticket. But we wanted much broader participation. We wanted at least the possibility that a regular person -- someone who makes, say, $50K instead of $500K annually -- could decide to dig deep and fund this cause AND have a chance to win a Grand Prize they could AFFORD to win. Imagine making $50K/year and getting hit with a $27K tax withholding bill. No Tesla for you, pal! I felt very strongly that we had to build in the possibility that a regular person could win! I want someone to get into the CAR, not into the cash that's left over after Uncle Sam takes his withholding taxes out. There is nothing that "proves" that $250 is the right ticket price; it's our best attempt at balancing all the competing needs, including interests of the ticket purchasers, excellent prizes, fund raising, expenses.
Oh, and sorry, thought you asked whether we had considered 500 $1,000 tickets. You actually asked whether we considered 5,000 $100 tickets. And the answer is yes, we did. But as far as we can tell, ticket sales don't scale linearly up and down with price. We couldn't convince ourselves that we would be able to sell 5,000 tickets or anywhere near that number. I do have some ideas about a future raffle that might scale up in a much larger way.
DNAinaGoodWay said:
Pollux666
Active member
OK, after some internal discussion with our raffle attorney, we are in agreement that:
+ Anyone who configures a Tesla with cost less than what we've allocated in the raffle can do so, just as anyone can configure a Tesla that costs more than what we've allocated. In the former case, the winner will be due a refund from Tesla (if we are able to prepay as we wish) or will get the different from Climate XChange. In the latter case, the winner will be on the hook to contribute the extra funds. This is the interpretation that is most favorable to existing as well as potential ticket holders.
Note that in all cases, CXC will continue to make a US withholding tax payment as described in the website. The net outlay by CXC remains the same.
+ We will not change any language on the website. We think we're adequately covered.
Alan
+ Anyone who configures a Tesla with cost less than what we've allocated in the raffle can do so, just as anyone can configure a Tesla that costs more than what we've allocated. In the former case, the winner will be due a refund from Tesla (if we are able to prepay as we wish) or will get the different from Climate XChange. In the latter case, the winner will be on the hook to contribute the extra funds. This is the interpretation that is most favorable to existing as well as potential ticket holders.
Note that in all cases, CXC will continue to make a US withholding tax payment as described in the website. The net outlay by CXC remains the same.
+ We will not change any language on the website. We think we're adequately covered.
Alan
NYLEAF said:
I assume that the "latter case" here is when a car is configured with more options that raise the total price? Thanks for the update. In my case it might make a difference. Why? Because while I'd love to drive a Tesla, I don't drive much or far anymore, and I have other financial concerns that make the cash prize more tempting. If I could get a new Tesla and a chunk of cash to pay off my bills, that would be fantastic. I'd still be driving an EV - and a Tesla! - so I wouldn't have to feel a little guilty...
Here's my car:https://www.teslamotors.com/models/preowned/p26746 I wish that Tesla offered cloth seats, though, darn it.
Pollux666
Active member
There is one basic choice for the Grand Prize Winner to make: take the car option or the cash alternative option.
Cash alternative: $100K. Winner pays the US withholding tax (25%). If the winner elects to have CXC deduct that payment from the Prize, then the Winner receives a $75K check.
Car: as described, copiously, elsewhere.
Yes, you can configure a Tesla with more options than we've spec'd out... or fewer!
Alan
Cash alternative: $100K. Winner pays the US withholding tax (25%). If the winner elects to have CXC deduct that payment from the Prize, then the Winner receives a $75K check.
Car: as described, copiously, elsewhere.
Yes, you can configure a Tesla with more options than we've spec'd out... or fewer!Alan
LeftieBiker said:
Pollux666
Active member
Wow, that's a nice, low-mileage 2013! 85kWh battery plus Supercharging means you're free to roam the country.
I have a 2013 myself and love it. P85+. August delivery, July build.
One suggestion: I haven't dug into the limited warranty that they offer on the car. Make sure it covers the drive unit especially, as well as the obvious battery pack. I'd also make sure that door handles are covered.
I have a 2013 myself and love it. P85+. August delivery, July build.
One suggestion: I haven't dug into the limited warranty that they offer on the car. Make sure it covers the drive unit especially, as well as the obvious battery pack. I'd also make sure that door handles are covered.
LeftieBiker said:
The warranty was posted a few pages back. I assume, since "my car" is on the Tesla site, that it applies.
https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/defau ... rranty.pdf
"This Pre-Owned Vehicle Limited Warranty supersedes and replaces the terms of the original New
Vehicle Limited Warranty's Basic Vehicle Limited Warranty and SRS Limited Warranty, each as
described below. This Pre-Owned Vehicle Limited Warranty does not extend or otherwise alter
the terms of the Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty for the Pre-Owned vehicle specified in
the original New Vehicle Limited Warranty.
So you get the vehicle and SRS warranties reset on CPO purchase, but the 8 year unlimited mileage warranty on the battery and drivetrain is still under the original purchase warranty when new.
Here is the New purchase warranty:
What is the New Vehicle Limited Warranty?
Your Model S is covered by the New Vehicle Limited Warranty, which includes the Basic Vehicle Limited Warranty, the Supplemental Restraint System (“SRS”) Limited Warranty, and the Battery Limited Warranty.
The Basic Vehicle Limited Warranty covers the repair or replacement necessary to correct defects in the materials or workmanship of any Model S parts manufactured or supplied by Tesla that occur under normal use for a period of four years or 50,000 miles (80,000 km), whichever comes first.
The SRS Limited Warranty covers the repair or replacement necessary to correct defects in the materials or workmanship of the vehicle’s seat belts or air bag system manufactured or supplied by Tesla that occur under normal use for a period of 5 years or 60,000 miles (100,000 km), whichever comes first.
The Battery Limited Warranty covers the repair or replacement of any malfunctioning or defective Model S battery for a period of eight years or for the number of miles/km specified below for your battery configuration, whichever comes first. If you have a 60kWh battery, your battery is covered for 125,000 miles (200,000 km) and if you have an 85kWh battery, your battery is covered for an unlimited amount of miles/km. To provide you with even more assurance, the Battery Limited Warranty will also cover damage to your vehicle from a battery fire even if it is the result of driver error, subject to certain exclusions.
See your New Vehicle Limited Warranty in the touchscreen in the car, or download it from the “My Documents” section of My Tesla, for further details"
https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/defau ... rranty.pdf
"This Pre-Owned Vehicle Limited Warranty supersedes and replaces the terms of the original New
Vehicle Limited Warranty's Basic Vehicle Limited Warranty and SRS Limited Warranty, each as
described below. This Pre-Owned Vehicle Limited Warranty does not extend or otherwise alter
the terms of the Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty for the Pre-Owned vehicle specified in
the original New Vehicle Limited Warranty.
So you get the vehicle and SRS warranties reset on CPO purchase, but the 8 year unlimited mileage warranty on the battery and drivetrain is still under the original purchase warranty when new.
Here is the New purchase warranty:
What is the New Vehicle Limited Warranty?
Your Model S is covered by the New Vehicle Limited Warranty, which includes the Basic Vehicle Limited Warranty, the Supplemental Restraint System (“SRS”) Limited Warranty, and the Battery Limited Warranty.
The Basic Vehicle Limited Warranty covers the repair or replacement necessary to correct defects in the materials or workmanship of any Model S parts manufactured or supplied by Tesla that occur under normal use for a period of four years or 50,000 miles (80,000 km), whichever comes first.
The SRS Limited Warranty covers the repair or replacement necessary to correct defects in the materials or workmanship of the vehicle’s seat belts or air bag system manufactured or supplied by Tesla that occur under normal use for a period of 5 years or 60,000 miles (100,000 km), whichever comes first.
The Battery Limited Warranty covers the repair or replacement of any malfunctioning or defective Model S battery for a period of eight years or for the number of miles/km specified below for your battery configuration, whichever comes first. If you have a 60kWh battery, your battery is covered for 125,000 miles (200,000 km) and if you have an 85kWh battery, your battery is covered for an unlimited amount of miles/km. To provide you with even more assurance, the Battery Limited Warranty will also cover damage to your vehicle from a battery fire even if it is the result of driver error, subject to certain exclusions.
See your New Vehicle Limited Warranty in the touchscreen in the car, or download it from the “My Documents” section of My Tesla, for further details"
Pollux666
Active member
Hi, @Urs,
Thanks for buying a ticket!
There's no longer any number to get close to... I got tired of people worrying about magic numbers so effective December 3 killed off the cash raffle. No matter how many or how few tickets Climate XChange sells for the raffle, the full set of prizes will be awarded... including the Tesla with all the trimmings!
Thank you for your support!
Best,
Alan
Thanks for buying a ticket!
There's no longer any number to get close to... I got tired of people worrying about magic numbers so effective December 3 killed off the cash raffle. No matter how many or how few tickets Climate XChange sells for the raffle, the full set of prizes will be awarded... including the Tesla with all the trimmings!
Thank you for your support!
Best,
Alan
Urs said:
Pollux666
Active member
Does anyone here care about Leilani Münter, the race car driver & environmentalist?
She tweeted: "This non-profit raffle aims to raise awareness for carbon pricing. What's the grand prize, you ask? A Tesla Model S." http://climate-xchange.org/tesla-raffle
Tweet can be found at https://twitter.com/LeilaniMunter/status/676780442033463296
(I tried using the Twitter-generated code to embed the tweet in this post, but had no luck.)
Thanks,
Alan
She tweeted: "This non-profit raffle aims to raise awareness for carbon pricing. What's the grand prize, you ask? A Tesla Model S." http://climate-xchange.org/tesla-raffle
Tweet can be found at https://twitter.com/LeilaniMunter/status/676780442033463296
(I tried using the Twitter-generated code to embed the tweet in this post, but had no luck.)
Thanks,
Alan
I don't Tweet but I do tell people about the raffle in more 20th Century ways. Like email. ;-)
Pollux666
Active member
What you said.
I'm 52. I'm an introvert. Twitter and FaceBook do NOT come naturally to this poor ex-systems engineer. I gave up on netnews back in 1983, when I fell behind on comp.sys.arch. I do NOT understand how people handle this twitter/fb/instagram/reddit load. It's crushing!
I'm 52. I'm an introvert. Twitter and FaceBook do NOT come naturally to this poor ex-systems engineer. I gave up on netnews back in 1983, when I fell behind on comp.sys.arch. I do NOT understand how people handle this twitter/fb/instagram/reddit load. It's crushing!
LeftieBiker said:
DNAinaGoodWay
Well-known member
Couldn't resist, now have #724 & #939, odds are pretty good. It's averaging about 20 a day. Unless it escalates, should under 1300 by the drawing.
Pollux666
Active member
By popular demand! We'll be updating the website occasionally with ticket sales numbers, going forward.
Why not a running counter? First there's the question whether we want a running counter. We're not entirely sure. But second, and definitely a big issue, is that we're nervous about the implementation. We're being *very* conservative about website and back-end changes at this point. And it turns out that a running counter is not so trivial to implement after all, either in the back-end OR displaying on the website. (For instance, there's the small matter that the *exact* correct number of tickets sold has a manual calculation step in it, due to the way we're handling cancellations, test tickets, and other categories.) Implementing a small text change, though, is much less risky. And we don't have to get the number perfect, as for all practical matters (including people who like to calculate odds), the exact number is a lot less important than a reasonably close number. It also means that we don't have to be quite as rigorous in making sure that the information is available to all potentially interested parties at the exact same moment.
The website is still catching up but I've already disclosed this information in an email to existing ticket holders (inviting them to the raffle drawing, RSVP ASAP, only 50 spots available). And since I've disclosed it there, I'm going to go ahead and disclose it on this thread and a few other threads besides:
"We have sold almost 1000 tickets."
Alan
P.S. Let the nit-picking begin! "Alan, in your view, is almost, like, um, within 10?" "Alan, do you define 'almost' as having one or two digits in the variance?" "Alan, why not just publish the exact number as of a given second (be sure to timestamp it when you publish it), and then you can let people decide for themselves how many tickets might have been sold since the timestamp?"
P.P.S. I think my favorite would be to have someone enthusiastic, like @DNAinaGoodWay, who has been quite a supporter of carbon pricing and who has impressed me with his energy to bring the carbon pricing issue to the attention of his elected representatives, simply purchase a ticket every minute or so and post the new number in all the interested forums. I'm open to debate about the frequency: I suggested once a minute, but could live with once a second or even once every 10 minutes.
Why not a running counter? First there's the question whether we want a running counter. We're not entirely sure. But second, and definitely a big issue, is that we're nervous about the implementation. We're being *very* conservative about website and back-end changes at this point. And it turns out that a running counter is not so trivial to implement after all, either in the back-end OR displaying on the website. (For instance, there's the small matter that the *exact* correct number of tickets sold has a manual calculation step in it, due to the way we're handling cancellations, test tickets, and other categories.) Implementing a small text change, though, is much less risky. And we don't have to get the number perfect, as for all practical matters (including people who like to calculate odds), the exact number is a lot less important than a reasonably close number. It also means that we don't have to be quite as rigorous in making sure that the information is available to all potentially interested parties at the exact same moment.
The website is still catching up but I've already disclosed this information in an email to existing ticket holders (inviting them to the raffle drawing, RSVP ASAP, only 50 spots available). And since I've disclosed it there, I'm going to go ahead and disclose it on this thread and a few other threads besides:
"We have sold almost 1000 tickets."
Alan
P.S. Let the nit-picking begin!
"Alan, in your view, is almost, like, um, within 10?" "Alan, do you define 'almost' as having one or two digits in the variance?" "Alan, why not just publish the exact number as of a given second (be sure to timestamp it when you publish it), and then you can let people decide for themselves how many tickets might have been sold since the timestamp?" P.P.S. I think my favorite would be to have someone enthusiastic, like @DNAinaGoodWay, who has been quite a supporter of carbon pricing and who has impressed me with his energy to bring the carbon pricing issue to the attention of his elected representatives, simply purchase a ticket every minute or so and post the new number in all the interested forums. I'm open to debate about the frequency: I suggested once a minute, but could live with once a second or even once every 10 minutes.
Pollux666
Active member
[crickets]
[more crickets]
Was it something I said? Seems like everyone has left the room and now it's my job to turn out the lights. :-(
Lonely.
Alan
[more crickets]
Was it something I said? Seems like everyone has left the room and now it's my job to turn out the lights. :-(
Lonely.
Alan
