Chevrolet Bolt & Bolt EUV

[finman100]

sorry, but the Bolt is a dolt. a non-starter for me. Where do i fast charge if i want to go on trips longer than 100 miles (there and back routine)? Please don't tell me to go to a GM dealership. uhg.

And please, CCS is nowhere near competing with Tesla's Supercharger network.

Heck, even Chademo DC charging is WAY ahead in number of stations around here (Oregon) compared to CCS. SOME newer stations are dual at least.

C'mon GM, either get going on that 'see the USA in an (electric) Chevrolet' retro ad campaign (remember the jingle?)
or invest in what Tesla is sharing with ANYONE who wants to make EVs real.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

sorry, but the Bolt is a dolt. a non-starter for me. Where do i fast charge if i want to go on trips longer than 100 miles (there and back routine)? Please don't tell me to go to a GM dealership. uhg.

And please, CCS is nowhere near competing with Tesla's Supercharger network.

Heck, even Chademo DC charging is WAY ahead in number of stations around here (Oregon) compared to CCS. SOME newer stations are dual at least.

C'mon GM, either get going on that 'see the USA in an (electric) Chevrolet' retro ad campaign (remember the jingle?)
or invest in what Tesla is sharing with ANYONE who wants to make EVs real.

just learned CCS won't even be part of the standard package which means fast charge will put me beyond the WA State tax credit...

 

[GRA]

just learned CCS won't even be part of the standard package which means fast charge will put me beyond the WA State tax credit...

Is that based on MSRP or price paid less govt. taxes/fees?

 

[roguenode]

If people are spending that much money on a vehicle, they want it to work for all of their needs.

Unfortunately that very reasoning is the justification behind the majority of large pickup and SUV sales in this country. They only go to Home Depot once a year to buy things that won't fit in anything else, but they'd rather daily drive a vehicle with fuel economy in the teens rather than have the stuff delivered, or rent a truck that can do the task (sometimes better).

I agree and believe that's flawed logic. My leaf is my only car, but I still have the occassional need for a car that can go farther and outside of my nearby charging network and also for a pickup. I save money, not to mention reduced pollution, if I just rent as needed. My area also has a car-sharing program that offers great short term rental pricing on a variety of vehicles, including Prius's, AWD Subaru's with bike racks, and pickup trucks.

Some just don't get it. I work with someone who drives a Yukon XL, solo, every day. He owns it for the twice a year vacations when he packs up the family and a bunch of outdoor gear. I've heard the same type of argument for buying more home that you'll use so you'll have an extra bedroom or two for the couple of times family may visit. I say, put them in a high-end hotel, rent them a car, and pay for their flights. You'll still save $$$.

 

[edatoakrun]

Bob Lutz asks the existential Bolt question.

Why?

Electric vehicle sales fall far short of Obama goal

...Bolt...a price starting at about $30,000 -- after government incentives.

...a steep buy-in compared to increasingly efficient gasoline-powered economy cars that can sell for less than $20,000.

"If gasoline was $8 a gallon, consumers would amortize the costs of an electric vehicle pretty quickly," said former GM vice chairman Bob Lutz, who headed up the development of the original Chevy Volt, a pioneering plug-in hybrid. "But at $1.50 a gallon, who is going to be willing to pay an $8,000 or $10,000 premium?"...

http://www.autonews.com/article/20160120/OEM05/160129995/electric-vehicle-sales-fall-far-short-of-obama-goal

1/24-Edit to correct authorship:

A moderator evidently posted the following comment a few days ago, for some reason attributing it to me.

Hopefully sales will be terrible and they will take $7k off MSRP or give crazy lease deals. Then the year after gas prices will go way up and it wil be worth much more Tesla's model of free fuel really blows it away however.

 

[garsh]

I agree and believe that's flawed logic.

The logic is sound. The question is, how much inconvenience are you willing to put up with during those several times per year when you need a larger vehicle?

• Call up the local car rental agency.
• Hope they have something available that fits your needs.
• They don't? Call another.
• Drive to that location, which probably isn't exactly on the way. Leave your Leaf there, not charging, because they have no charging station.
• Drive back home to pick up all the stuff that wouldn't fit in your little car.

etc. etc.

Probably not nearly as much of a hassle if you live in a city & have a zipcar location and Home Depot within walking distance.

 

[pkulak]

The logic is sound. The question is, how much inconvenience are you willing to put up with during those several times per year when you need a larger vehicle?

• Call up the local car rental agency.
• Hope they have something available that fits your needs.
• They don't? Call another.
• Drive to that location, which probably isn't exactly on the way. Leave your Leaf there, not charging, because they have no charging station.
• Drive back home to pick up all the stuff that wouldn't fit in your little car.

etc. etc.

Probably not nearly as much of a hassle if you live in a city & have a zipcar location and Home Depot within walking distance.

And then after all that, you've got to drive a shitty rental and pay for the privilege. Do that more than about 4 times a year and you'll be done with the EV. And most people leave town at least 4 times a year.

 

[mwalsh]

And then after all that, you've got to drive a shitty rental and pay for the privilege. Do that more than about 4 times a year and you'll be done with the EV. And most people leave town at least 4 times a year.

But this goes back to what I've been saying all along when it comes to the current crop of EVs (Tesla offerings excepted...maybe) - you need to know what your needs are, and need to decide if an EV (as available today) will fit those needs.

For me, 90% of all my needs are met by a full capacity Gen 1 LEAF. I knew that going in and I was prepared to make accommodation for the odd occasion that didn't turn out to be the case.

Even when my LEAF degraded to the point that it wasn't so easy anymore, I still made it work. If you can't make it work, then you have no business buying an EV right now. End of story. And I have no sympathies for those who don't think it through before they sign the dotted line. I really don't.

 

[roguenode]

The logic is sound. The question is, how much inconvenience are you willing to put up with during those several times per year when you need a larger vehicle?

• Call up the local car rental agency.
• Hope they have something available that fits your needs.
• They don't? Call another.
• Drive to that location, which probably isn't exactly on the way. Leave your Leaf there, not charging, because they have no charging station.
• Drive back home to pick up all the stuff that wouldn't fit in your little car.

etc. etc.

Probably not nearly as much of a hassle if you live in a city & have a zipcar location and Home Depot within walking distance.

And then after all that, you've got to drive a shitty rental and pay for the privilege. Do that more than about 4 times a year and you'll be done with the EV. And most people leave town at least 4 times a year.

I see both of your points, but you also paint a worse case scenario. Some rental agencies will pick you up and you're paying for the privilege of having your own ICE vehicle with increased operating costs.

In addition, ICE ownership also comes with the joy found in spending time and gas driving your ICE vehicle to your dealer/service shop for routine oil changes and other maintenance BEV owners generally don't contend with. Potentially taking time off work, adjusting schedule, arranging for pickups, etc.

 

[garsh]

I see both of your points, but you also paint a worse case scenario.

It's a reasonable scenario, not worst-case. I can think of many more things that could go wrong.

All I'm trying to point out is that the logic of owning a large do-everything car is not "flawed". It's a matter of priorities. How often do you need such a vehicle, how much are you willing to pay for the privelege, and how much are you willing to put up with the inconvenience of owning an EV instead.

Personally, I need two vehicles anyway, so having the second vehicle be a minivan covers a lot of those Leaf-won't-work scenarios conveniently.

 

[roguenode]

I see both of your points, but you also paint a worse case scenario.

It's a reasonable scenario, not worst-case. I can think of many more things that could go wrong.

All I'm trying to point out is that the logic of owning a large do-everything car is not "flawed". It's a matter of priorities. How often do you need such a vehicle, how much are you willing to pay for the privelege, and how much are you willing to put up with the inconvenience of owning an EV instead.

Personally, I need two vehicles anyway, so having the second vehicle be a minivan covers a lot of those Leaf-won't-work scenarios conveniently.

Fair points. Depending on your use case and priorities, it can make sense or be a poor decision.

 

[Evoforce]

I have to say that having 2 electric vehicles is more than just doubling the usability factor. Always one or the other seems to be useable even when one is depleted for jumping into to complete local chores. Having one that can do 200+ miles would even be better. At this time though, I still need my Jeep for towing my boat to the lake. We need an electric only truck that will do 300 miles towing. I also have to say, shame on GM for not rolling out QC stations, using the combo plug style, and for not putting QC port as standard on this Bolt. The car also seems smaller than the Leaf.

 

[minispeed]

I saw the Bolt this week at the Detroit show in person and was not nearly as impressed as I was with the concept last year. Last year the concept looked to bridge the gap of compact to midsize, maybe because they didn't open all the doors. This year the production one looked very small. Not the kind of car that Americans are known to like to buy. I left wondering why they chose that platform. Rumours were going on for a while that it would be a sonic platform and it looks like it slots in at the same size. I think they would have been better off to update the Spark EV to 120-150 miles and build say a Malibu or Impala platform 200 mile EV for more money.

Now I like small cars myself, but not to drive 200 miles in. For many people it won't matter that there isn't enough CCS fast charging or if the port doesn't come standard. If 200 mile road trips are what you want you will probably be put off by the size of the bolt. I think the 200 number is nice to make people who need a 100 mile EV feel comfortable.

 

[Evoforce]

I saw the Bolt this week at the Detroit show in person and was not nearly as impressed as I was with the concept last year. Last year the concept looked to bridge the gap of compact to midsize, maybe because they didn't open all the doors. This year the production one looked very small. Not the kind of car that Americans are known to like to buy. I left wondering why they chose that platform. Rumours were going on for a while that it would be a sonic platform and it looks like it slots in at the same size. I think they would have been better off to update the Spark EV to 120-150 miles and build say a Malibu or Impala platform 200 mile EV for more money.

Now I like small cars myself, but not to drive 200 miles in. For many people it won't matter that there isn't enough CCS fast charging or if the port doesn't come standard. If 200 mile road trips are what you want you will probably be put off by the size of the bolt. I think the 200 number is nice to make people who need a 100 mile EV feel comfortable.

I was afraid they were going to be too small. I was getting that feeling from the pictures...

 

[scottf200]

Now I like small cars myself, but not to drive 200 miles in. For many people it won't matter that there isn't enough CCS fast charging or if the port doesn't come standard. If 200 mile road trips are what you want you will probably be put off by the size of the bolt. I think the 200 number is nice to make people who need a 100 mile EV feel comfortable.

Consider it a worry free commuter. Some families/spouses want to drive EVs like normal cars. Doesn't matter if you are cranking the heater in the winter or A/C in the summer.

Some families/spouses don't want to worry about battery degradation in a few years so there is some headroom here.

Some families/spouses don't want to worry about emergencies (leaving working to get kids/aging parents/etc) or construction detours or heavy traffic in the summer or winter.

Pretty great to have all those extra kWh for a commuter car and not have any range anxiety for "normal" folks that aren't EV nuts/geeks.

 

[evnow]

Some families/spouses want to drive EVs like normal cars.

Yes, but families need bigger cars. I'd rather have 150 miles and a family hatch / CUV. I think Hyundai Ioniq /Kia Niro will have a bigger market even with a lower range.

 

[WetEV]

Pretty great to have all those extra kWh for a commuter car and not have any range anxiety for "normal" folks that aren't EV nuts/geeks.

Yes, and you never can tell when you might need to take that commuter car on a longer trip. The ICE alternative might be not available.

Yesterday I took a 230 mile trip in my Leaf. 2 DCFCs on the way, plus destination charging at L2, plus 2 DCFCs and a L2 (from 80% to 90%) on the way home. 5 1/2 hours driving including 2 border crossings, into Canada and into USA. 2 hours charging not counting time at destination. Arrived home with 16% left, I had planned to arrive home at 18%, which is why the charge to 90%. Arriving home just after LBW is no worries, at least for me. Especially as I knew from the half way point of the last leg I was going to hit it, as was using energy slightly faster than planned. Your range anxiety probably varies.

With a Bolt or similar 200 mile EV, I might have been able to do a trip like this with just destination charging. And not have done a planning spreadsheet with 5 different trip and charging options, and gone by the freeway at higher speed on two sections, rather than the 55 MPH road that parallels the freeway.

 

[lorenfb]

And not have done a planning spreadsheet with 5 different trip and charging options, and gone by the freeway at higher speed on two sections, rather than the 55 MPH road that parallels the freeway.

Yes, an unavoidable step for some when planning a trip beyond a BEV's range now days.

Can you imagine a BEV sales person confronted with a buyer's question about taking trips that exceed the
BEV's range, that the sales person might respond, "It's simple, most of our BEV buyers use a spreadsheet
to plan their route. You do know how to use a spreadsheet, right?, ?

 

[WetEV]

Can you imagine a BEV sales person confronted with a buyer's question about taking trips that exceed the
BEV's range, that the sales person might respond, "It's simple, most of our BEV buyers use a spreadsheet
to plan their route. You do know how to use a spreadsheet, right?, ?

LOL. I do very few trips beyond range. And for me, doing so is a geeky challenge. A kind of fun. Usually don't bother, take the Prius.

If the Navigation system did a reasonable job of range estimation and trip planning by using temperature, altitude and speed data as well as distance, and the instrument system did a better job of telling you if you are using energy on track to arrive with margin, then it wouldn't be need to be so geeky.

These would be good goals for next generation EVs.

BTW: I have an error in my spreadsheet that I need to correct. Battery temperature was low on the first leg, and my capacity was ~10% lower than the spreadsheet assumed, and to a much lesser extent on the second leg, so my range was lower than expected on these two legs. No worries, as I had lots of margin on all but the last leg. DCQC warms the battery, so the later legs were just fine. Battery temperature isn't constant over such a long drive. Sigh, will need to collect more data and improve the spread sheet, I only recorded TBs on the drive log, and not actual battery temperatures. Started the first leg with 4TBs, the second with 5TBs, and later ones with 6TBs. All but the first leg ended with 5TBs. Which isn't good enough to allow me to correct the spreadsheet because the temperature ranges in a TB are so wide.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

A few more technical details on the Bolt EV:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/car...hings-to-know-about-chevrolets-30000-bolt-ev/

The Cd is 0.312 and the frontal area is 25.8 sq ft, so the CdA is 8.05 sq ft.