Chargepoint at LAX... the only way to fly.. almost

[davewill]

I guess it's up to me to be the voice of dissension. I strongly feel that touching anyone else's car without express permission, like the charging protocol card, is a mistake...no matter what your need was.

 

[1051]

I think the the electric is all about sharing. You did the right thing.

I agree with smkettner! If the car was on a timer it should charging again. We should also use the Charge Protocol Card; http://www.evchargernews.com/chargeprotocolcard.pdf

 

[z0ner]

I guess it's up to me to be the voice of dissension. I strongly feel that touching anyone else's car without express permission, like the charging protocol card, is a mistake...no matter what your need was.

Not to talk semantics, but did he actually touch the car? Simply removing the J1772 and inserting it afterwards requires no extra handling...

 

[smkettner]

I guess it's up to me to be the voice of dissension. I strongly feel that touching anyone else's car without express permission, like the charging protocol card, is a mistake...no matter what your need was.

No need to touch the actual car. But I agree that if the lights indicated it was actively charging then it is hands off.

 

[thankyouOB]

do you need a chargepoint card to operate the chargers?

 

[Glenn]

So, it's clear the LAX EVSEs are gonna be busy from here on out. I've emailed Chargepoint recommending they put more into this location pronto.
But I'm wondering about my EV etiquette here. Was I right to disconnect another EV under these circumstances?

Sparky's experience bring up an interesting topic. If I've heard correctly here on MNL, LAX's policy allows an EV to park (presumably in a spot at an EVSE) for up to 30 days. It seems to me that might have worked a few years ago, but - as his photo shows - it's not going to cut it going forward. Anyone out of town for more than one day will be occupying the space far longer than the maximum charge they could get. This same thing will be occurring, to varying degrees, at most public parking venues. Will we be seeing a situation where we leave our "keys" with a parking lot attendant so our car can be moved to another parking area after it's charged, much like valet parking we're accustomed to now?

Obviously we're all still learning how things will work themselves out as we move forward together in the new EV world.

Glenn

 

[garygid]

If the car charges in the first 6-8 hours, and THEN sits there for 29 days, just blocking the spot ... that is a VERY POOR use of a scarce resource. A much BETTER way should be found.

A start might be to spread out the L2 charging stations so that one e-hose could serve 4 parking places.

Prehaps signage saying that a visible "Unplug OK at <time>" is mandatory, & un-marked cars can be unplugged at any time, if needed.

 

[davewill]

I guess it's up to me to be the voice of dissension. I strongly feel that touching anyone else's car without express permission, like the charging protocol card, is a mistake...no matter what your need was.

No need to touch the actual car. But I agree that if the lights indicated it was actively charging then it is hands off.

For all we know, the owner was trying to remotely trigger a charge right when the charge handle was taken, and therefore got no charge. Perhaps he's simply an unreasonable SOB who will resort to confrontation or violence when he comes by and finds YOUR car plugged in instead of his...The point is that without knowing it's OK, it's a bad idea.

The way to handle this may turn out to be through ChargePoint. Maybe they should force the user to reserve the EVSE for a fixed time...then the display can indicate that the unit will be available at such and such a time. That would put the owner on notice that he can't expect to be connected after that time. Or course that does nothing to mitigate the lack of empty spots to park.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

For airports, we need to deploy LOTS of L1, 120V J1772 charge stations. Most travelers will be gone for more than the 20 hours or less it will take for the 120V charge to bring the LEAF to 100% charge. For the same electrical supply, you can deploy 4 times as many 120V 15A level 1 chargers vs. 240V 30A level chargers (yes, I know, they missed the boat on the LEAF gen 1 and it only uses 3.3 kW of the available 6.6 kW, but future EVs including LEAF gen 2 will use 6.6 kW).

The unfortunate thing is that the facilities work - cutting concrete, installing wires, getting permits, etc. will make the level 1 charge stations a little less expensive than level 2, for stations that have a single charge port (J1772 connector).

Though if we have a level 1 Hydra EV charger, it could be situated in between two back to back rows of parking and reach to two spaces on either side, covering a total of 8 spaces out of a single 8 ported Level 1 Hydra charger and supply those 8 Level 1 J1772 connectors from a single 240V 60A service. Each Hydra wouldn't cost too much more than a stanalone Level 2 charger once the installation costs are factored in, but installing a few hydras would make a large number of spaces for EV charging. (AV already makes 2 and 4 port Level 2 stations, but it's 2 or 4 of their existing Level 2 EVSE units installed in a plastic cover that mounts the 2 or 4 units on a single pedestal - that offers significants cost savings per port for hardware plus installation, but MUCH greater savings are easily possible with a purpose built, 8 port Level 1 Hydra multi-EVSE. One of the AV 2 port stations is installed at my Nissan dealer and quite possibly, yours!)

EVs will be parked in charging spaces at airports for several times longer than it takes for a full charge. Days, weeks, even a month. The trick is to deploy lots of lower cost, slower charging stations so having the spot occupied is a non-issue because you can afford to provide lots of EV charging spaces.

Note that providing Level 1 power to parking spaces is not a new problem - it's been solved for years in the extreme cold of the north for engine block heaters for decades, admittedly at a 400 - 900 watt level per vehicle for block heaters as opposed to 1500 watt for EV charging, but it's not difficult or that expensive if done right. J1772 connectors + control electronics can be incorporated for less than $200/port retail in a properly designed multi-port product that shares the same pedestal, electrical service and housing.

Picture of Parking outlets in Fairbanks
Anchorage, AK Plug@20 block heater information

I tried to locate a list of parking lots / locations that have 120V outlets for block heaters. I couldn't find any good onse since it appears, that generally these outlets are pervasive - everywhere in that area, so there's no need for directory - they're already everywhere you go!

 

[davewill]

Note that providing Level 1 power to parking spaces is not a new problem - it's been solved for years in the extreme cold of the north for engine block heaters for decades, admittedly at a 400 - 900 watt level per vehicle for block heaters as opposed to 1500 watt for EV charging, but it's not difficult or that expensive if done right. J1772 connectors + control electronics can be incorporated for less than $200/port retail in a properly designed multi-port product that shares the same pedestal, electrical service and housing.

There's no reason that four headed L1 pedestal with J1772 handles couldn't be designed to supply only 400-900 watts per handle. Then it could be attached to the same type of electrical infrastructure. The full L2 spaces could then be designated short-term (24 hrs?) parking only.

 

[KeiJidosha]

do you need a chargepoint card to operate the chargers?

A good point. You want to "Stop" the charger (open the contacts) before you unplug whenever possible. You need a card to do that with Coulomb. But I'm not sure it will respond to a second customers card while it is activated for the first customer. If it does, this should indicate how (who) terminated the charge. I will have to experiment at the next meet up. I would not unplug a car that is actively charging unless I got the OK from the driver.

 

[KeiJidosha]

There's no reason that four headed L1 pedestal with J1772 handles couldn't be designed to supply only 400-900 watts per handle. Then it could be attached to the same type of electrical infrastructure. The full L2 spaces could then be designated short-term (24 hrs?) parking only.

While the J1772 spec does show that 10% Pilot signal duty cycle indicates 8amp (960watt) service, I don't know anyone besides Manzanita Micro in the home build market that lets you throttle down that low, and no one that does it automatically.

 

[davewill]

While the J1772 spec does show that 10% Pilot signal duty cycle indicates 8amp (960watt) service, I don't know anyone besides Manzanita Micro in the home build market that lets you throttle down that low, and no one that does it automatically.

So you think the LEAF would simply refuse to charge, then?

 

[sparky]

I guess it's up to me to be the voice of dissension. I strongly feel that touching anyone else's car without express permission, like the charging protocol card, is a mistake...no matter what your need was.

I appreciate your point of view (really). IMO this whole EV thing is as much social engineering as physical. My youngest son was with me on this trip so, when I recognized the dilemma, I turned to him and said "ok, ethics class is in session... what do you do in this situation?".

More and more people and their EVs will be sharing EVSEs and parking spaces in the coming months -> years. Fewer and fewer are of the early adopter type. As with any new environment, we'll have to adapt. Hopefully, we can empathize and communicate through some of these growing pains. Padlocks on J1772 handles and tamper alarms may or may not be the best way forward.
Chargepoint has a reservation function on their website but I couldn't get it to work. Perhaps that's a useful option in this situation. If the LEAF owner had reserved the EVSE and that time interval had passed, then the station would indicate this and my Chargepoint card would be able to activate it for my use. Doesn't help if the owner has a padlock on the connector though.

I now have a charger protocol card to put in on my dash to inform others: thanks KeiJidosha.

So far, I feel I would do the same thing if I had it to do over. No, I didn't "touch" the car. But, if I'd screwed up somebody else's charging needs it would have been wrong.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

While the J1772 spec does show that 10% Pilot signal duty cycle indicates 8amp (960watt) service, I don't know anyone besides Manzanita Micro in the home build market that lets you throttle down that low, and no one that does it automatically.

So you think the LEAF would simply refuse to charge, then?

I only provided the engine block heaters at 400-900 watts as an example that wiring up LOTS of praking spaces is practical and has already been done. For EV charging, I'd go with 120V 12A as a minimum (15A circuit), if there was any need to further reduce power for load sharing or smart grid signals, it would probably work fine just to turn it off for a while - say a few hours and turn all ports off or alternate between ports to reduce the total load.

Interesting point - for long term Airport parking, they can have some of these Hydra 8 port Level EVSEs AND put them on a timer say turning on the power only from 9pm to 7am, if you're parked there for 2 nights or more, it won't matter to you, but will help the grid and further reduce costs with off peak power.

 

[KeiJidosha]

While the J1772 spec does show that 10% Pilot signal duty cycle indicates 8amp (960watt) service, I don't know anyone besides Manzanita Micro in the home build market that lets you throttle down that low, and no one that does it automatically.

So you think the LEAF would simply refuse to charge, then?

If the Nissan Charger does not throttle below 12 amps, it should refuse to charge. And I should correct that 10% Pilot signal duty cycle is actually 6 amps (720 watts), not 8.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

IIMO this whole EV thing is as much social engineering as physical. My youngest son was with me on this trip so, when I recognized the dilemma, I turned to him and said "ok, ethics class is in session... what do you do in this situation?".

More and more people and their EVs will be sharing EVSEs and parking spaces in the coming months -> years. Fewer and fewer are of the early adopter type. As with any new environment, we'll have to adapt. Hopefully, we can empathize and communicate through some of these growing pains. Padlocks on J1772 handles and tamper alarms may or may not be the best way forward.
Chargepoint has a reservation function on their website but I couldn't get it to work. Perhaps that's a useful option in this situation. If the LEAF owner had reserved the EVSE and that time interval had passed, then the station would indicate this and my Chargepoint card would be able to activate it for my use. Doesn't help if the owner has a padlock on the connector though.

I now have a charger protocol card to put in on my dash to inform others: thanks KeiJidosha.

So far, I feel I would do the same thing if I had it to do over. No, I didn't "touch" the car. But, if I'd screwed up somebody else's charging needs it would have been wrong.

As we get to mass adoption, complications or barriers to EV usage need to be reduced or eliminated. Mass adoption will involve consumers that have no knowledge or don't have time to learn charger etiquette - just think of the times you're sitting at a table of people who don't share the same eating etiquette you do! We need enough charging stations out there so we don't have to worry about them all being occupied, at least no more so than finding a the parking space in the first place. We all know some parking lots are so busy that spaces are sometimes impossible to find and sometimes the tempers of drivers are even more impossible.

It's got to be simple, reliable and dependable for mass adoption by consumers of all types.

So there's work to be done in reducing the cost of charging hardware and getting it installed so that we have enough charging stations that it's always avalable when it's needed. And there are HUGE opportunities in cost reduction for ev charging stations.

 

[smkettner]

I think there needs to be two levels of chargers. The 30+ amp is great for pickups/dropoffs and should be in a separate short term parking area. Long term should use the lowest amp setting of the J connector protocall maybe 7 amps 120v? No need for EV reserved spots just get a bunch of unmonitored J connectors out there even if on the top level or the back corner of the lots.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

I think there needs to be two levels of chargers. The 30+ amp is great for pickups/dropoffs and should be in a separate short term parking area. Long term should use the lowest amp setting of the J connector protocall maybe 7 amps 120v? No need for EV reserved spots just get a bunch of unmonitored J connectors out there even if on the top level or the back corner of the lots.

Exactly! And lots of them!

 

[smkettner]

This is all that is needed for long term. 120v 7 amps. No bells, no whistles, no timers, no wifi, no RFI, no activation card. Just a bit of power to get you back full in a few days. Well and a box that can be properly attached.