CHAdeMO and SAE dual ported DC Fast Chargers

[grommet]

News alert: "Early 2012 has come & gone" remaining question is when, if ever.

Well, the outdoor version ("advanced") is shipping. See the link above.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Can you show me how much it costs to run a 3-phase out to a DC Fast Charge station? I'll be happy to work with those numbers. Blanket, unitemized costs aren't worth looking at because that's not the way the world works. If I'm a business I hire an electrical contractor to bring the 3-Phase out to the station and then I buy the unit and hire the contractor to install it. So maybe $4,000 is a low ball. What do you think? $10,000? Seriously, I want your numbers.

I've responded to maybe dozens of these types of armchair quotes on this, and other forums. There is not one number for installation. Many, many variables affect the cost.

To give you an example, my first quote for a DC charger install was $38,000, including needed concrete cutting. That site has pre-installed conduit, and two existing meter slots (200amp and 400amp). Our charger list price is $25,000. Hitting close to $100,000 isn't hard with Insurance, advertising, an actual employee or two, permits (many thousands in this part of the world), engineering, depreciation, maintenance set-asides, plus a bunch more costs (how about a bigger transformer?) very quickly push the REAL cost to a bit more than the low balls.

The cost to install could be far more, or far less, depending on, again, all the variables. I know you want a nice easy, one size fits all number, and it will never exist. The cheapest is having a transformer sitting next to the proposed charger installation, requiring no concrete or asphalt work. You should be able to get this cost below $10,000. Check out the numerous DC chargers in Oregon and Washington by AeroVironment. Very, VERY, well done. They fit this model.

 

[TimeHorse]

Insurance is part of the business as a whole, not just for the unit and covers the entire premises. The increased premium for the EVSE is a wash.

We can up or original estimates from $9,000 to $15,000 as of today. The Blink and Eaton unit have no price yet but seems the best dual-gang technology. Copper is pricey but aluminium also conducts and is what I use in my 125A installation. It's thicker but not very expensive to replace. Not saying that's what Sumitomo or Blink or Eaton would use but until we know what they do use it's not fair to argue that a liability. I would be willing to upgrade the cost to swap a CHAdeMO for an SAE to $1,500 in keeping with the 10% paradigm. As for installation cost, I can imagine it being more than $4,000 but not much more than $10,000. Generally, what the contractor needs to do is first verify there is 3-phase service at the establishment. If not, that's a lot more money and requires the PU to upgrade the service. I'd hope we could find businesses with 3-phase service already though as if they don't it's probably not worth putting in a CHAdeMO or SAE unit. So the process would be to switch off main power (for safety) remove any drywall necessary to run the 3-Phase Aluminium conduit (again, why waste money) and potentially dig a trench through your parking lot to get the conduit out to the station. Again, money could be saved by putting the station at the storefront but that's gonna get more iced. Most businesses choose to save money and I'll assume said business will too. Parts won't be that expensive. The main parts cost will be the conduit. This could be as cheap as $50 for 60 ft but I think with a reputable electrical contractor it's more likely to be about $500 for a 60' run. Now, with labor you're probably talking 2 days work at most so maybe a $1,500? Add in a cutoff switch for safety for another $250 and you've got yourself a DC Fast Charger. Granted, I'm not an Electrician but given my experience working with them I don't think these numbers are unreasonable. They balloon if you have to dig up your parking lot or if there aren't areas within the building where conduit would be easy to run but more or less that's all that's required (as TonyWilliams has just pointed out). So $4,000 isn't unreasonable as base but add in some of the things I left out like digging up and repaving driveway and yeah, $10,000 may be more reasonable. But believe me, copper isn't as common as you think in these situations and as such they're not as expensive as you might think.

Again, if you're getting one every 3 days it's gonna take about 17 years to pay off (given $5 markup and $5 net profit per customer). If it's once a day maybe an ROI of 6 years. Again, compare that to Solar with an ROI of about 16 years. It's not like such an ROI is unfathomable for a business but again I say businesses should be helped by credits. Put a 30% parts and labor credit on that ant the 3 days per is just under 12 years.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Insurance is part of the business as a whole, not just for the unit and covers the entire premises. The increased premium for the EVSE is a wash.
..... They balloon if you have to dig up your parking lot or if there aren't areas within the building where conduit would be easy to run but more or less that's all that's required (as TonyWilliams has just pointed out). So $4,000 isn't unreasonable as base but add in some of the things I left out like digging up and repaving driveway and yeah, $10,000 may be more reasonable. But believe me, copper isn't as common as you think in these situations and as such they're not as expensive as you might think.

Again, if you're getting one every 3 days it's gonna take about 17 years to pay off (given $5 markup and $5 net profit per customer). If it's once a day maybe an ROI of 6 years. Again, compare that to Solar with an ROI of about 16 years. It's not like such an ROI is unfathomable for a business but again I say businesses should be helped by credits. Put a 30% parts and labor credit on that ant the 3 days per is just under 12 years.

Well, it sounds like you've got yourself a new business!!! By the way, that insurance that you claim is a "wash" cost me over $5000. And that's why I'm not really going to participate in these types of loop discussions anymore here. You obviously don't know the costs, and like all these discussions, the default cost is whatever is "cheaper" to the author.

 

[TimeHorse]

Well, it sounds like you've got yourself a new business!!! By the way, that insurance that you claim is a "wash" cost me over $5000. And that's why I'm not really going to participate in these types of loop discussions anymore here. You obviously don't know the costs, and like all these discussions, the default cost is whatever is "cheaper" to the author.

It's not a question of what's cheapest. Just a question of what's most likely. I said I could find conduit on Craig's List for $50. What did I do? I multiplied that by 10 to estimate an electrical contractor. I estimated her labor over 2 days to be $1500 which works out to about $100 per hour, again not unreasonable. As for the insurance, did your premium really go up $5,000 per year? I'm not denying this, just want clarification. If you say that's what it cost you I believe you. I would be happy to adjust my numbers to that but it strikes me as we get farther and farther into this I wonder how a gasoline station can be a viable business. Put another way, how many per day does the station need to serve to break even? And how did the first stations work. Stations that is that weren't in the outskirts on farms where the first gasoline vehicles were used. Surely there weren't any tax credits or low-interest loans or grants back then. I think the car makers subsidized the first station construction. So maybe it should be Nissan and Mitsubishi that should be flipping the shared-cost bill, as if that's ever gonna happen! But we have to deal with the world we have now, not the world we want to be. And I'll keep refining my numbers as I get more information. As it is, if you're right that insurance is $5,000 per year, 2 visitors per day are required just to break even and that's gonna be tricky for many needed stations. Not saying it's impossible, but it is tricky and doesn't even begin to generate money to pay off the initial debt. So that's why I want to see numbers because if you're right I recommend all LEAF drivers just go out and buy a Volt or C-Energy Max or something because you're never gonna see another state in that vehicle.

And even with the SAE you'll not have enough cars until 2020 at least to support even 1 station.

 

[91040]

As of the middle of July, AV said the Nissan/Sumitomo unit will not be available until the middle of November.

Well, the outdoor version ("advanced") is shipping. See the link above.

TimeHorse- $5000 is the standard quote for business insurance here. Don't know what the additional cost would be for those who already have business insurance.

 

[TimeHorse]

TimeHorse- $5000 is the standard quote for business insurance here. Don't know what the additional cost would be for those who already have business insurance.

My original point was that any retail or restaurant business would already have insurance and so add the EVSE to their policy. I don't see why anyone would be getting a policy on just the EVSE. It's not like you'd expect the unit to be installed in a vacuum. It's gotta be on someone's property and that property owner probably owns more than just a few square feet of parking lot. But again, I'm keeping an opened mind because TonyWilliams, all be it in a huff as if I was attacking him personally when I have the greatest respect for him and Mr. Not-a-Number despite my ribbing of that über-cool name of his. I just seek the truth so I want real numbers. I would not appreciate anyone quoting me a single policy when in fact a normal business would do just as I suggested and at it to an existing policy. I can only assume that in good faith what TonyWilliams quoted me was a policy rider not an individual policy. Personally, I think for a rider that's pretty high. Consider if it costs $1,000 to replace the handle and it breaks less than 4 times a year you're better off from a property point of view of just forsaking the insurance all together were it no likely the State or Commonwealth would require you to be getting it.

I don't appreciate scare tactics just because someone doesn't want to see things work. I want the truth. Show me the numbers!

 

[91040]

So far there has been little interest in installing QC stations from any business owners in the Los Angeles and presumably the San Diego region. A number of Leaf owners here have been investigating installing and operating QC stations themselves. Unless the property owner can or is willing to add the Charger to their insurance policy and charge us the cost, we are stuck paying the $5k.

 

[TimeHorse]

So far there has been little interest in installing QC stations from any business owners in the Los Angeles and presumably the San Diego region. A number of Leaf owners here have been investigating installing and operating QC stations themselves. Unless the property owner can or is willing to add the Charger to their insurance policy and charge us the cost, we are stuck paying the $5k.

Well, if you're doing it yourselves then sure the policy is gonna be pricey and not what I'd recommend. Mainly I'm looking at rest areas, especially ones with Gasoline stations and in fact although I don't by any stretch think we need 30,000 CHAdeMO in the U.S. 3,000 dual-gang CHAdeMO / SAE would go a long way if strategically places along the nation's Interstates. I would like to chat a bit off-list about your experiences so we can learn from each other as I'm sure I have a lot I could learn from you with the specifics of what your local businesses are telling you and where they are located.

PM me if interested.

 

[DANandNAN]

Well, if you're doing it yourselves then sure the policy is gonna be pricey and not what I'd recommend. Mainly I'm looking at rest areas, especially ones with Gasoline stations and in fact although I don't by any stretch think we need 30,000 CHAdeMO in the U.S. 3,000 dual-gang CHAdeMO / SAE would go a long way if strategically places along the nation's Interstates..

Again with the electric highway :roll: :lol:

Well with QC you suddenly have an unlimited range EV. What's not to like???

A hard 45 mph speed limit that can't be broken no matter how fast you try to go?

Notes:

• Perhaps it should be less than 70%, but I am using Phil's report that "80%" is really out of total capacity, and more like 85% of available.
• Going below LBW won't help; it will just increase the charging time.
• If you go beyond 80% the charging slows dramatically, and the numbers get worse.
• 25 minutes charge time is very optimistic, since you need to include the time to get off the freeway and get to the charging station.
• 25 minutes becomes even more unrealistic when you realize you might have to wait for someone else to finish charging.
• I haven't allowed for the fact that multiple charges are likely to overheat the battery, forcing even longer waits.

Ray

The Leaf at 40MPH max speed means it is not a highway vehicle. An electric highway is not an incentive to sell Leafs. The number of Leaf's that are sold based on a L3 charger placed midway between two cities is very small. If it wasn't a small number we would see an increase in sales. Yes, there are those who can live with parking every 35 minutes, but most cannot. The Leaf needs a larger battery and fast charging before folks will consider it as their highway vehicle. Until there is a vehicle that can travel at 60-65MPH including charging time L3 highways are not necessary.

L3 in the cities has already been discussed. It's very expensive and there's very few cars willing to pay for it. If there was a market for them, we'd see new L3 stations popping up every day.

 

[padamson1]

...as we get farther and farther into this I wonder how a gasoline station can be a viable business. Put another way, how many per day does the station need to serve to break even? And how did the first stations work?...

Herein lies the big question. As I understand it early gas stations were either owned by or franchised from the oil companies. Essentially oil companies jumpstarted things by making the investment to install pumps and then depreciating that cost over time. The problem is the environment is a little different today. 100yrs ago the car was light-years ahead of the established horse for transportation, so one could count on exponential growth for autos. Presently EVs do not have the same advantage over well established ICE vehicles, so private companies will not want to take the risk to build out a EV network (without a push from the government).

[This is actually the fundamental problem with the "allow market forces to choose a replacement for gas vehicles argument". There is no way gas can be replaced because no other individual transportation method can compete with it until gas prices climb to such a level that the economy will be crippled. By picking another method in advance, the government can a allow a slow transition off of gas without crippling our gas dependent economy. As more people switch to EVs, pressure on gas prices will be reduced even though the rest of the world is driving prices up over the reduced supply. Sure there is a risk that the wrong technology is picked, but electricity already is distributed nationwide, EVSE's are just outlets, so it will be cheaper than any other fuel source available today]

If there is going to be a switch to EVs, the government (taxpayers) would pay for the EVSE's either directly as they are now or indirectly as a tax subsidy (via depreciation write-offs) to the companies who installed them. Since it is a safe bet the private companies wouldn't overpay for installation like the government appears to ($150,000 is at least twice as much as a QC should cost), having the EVSE stations setup by private companies does make better sense financially.

Unfortunately laws do not permit utilities to operate EVSE's for money or private companies to charge on what each individual cars consumes, so the private business model is impaired. Until legislation is written to rectify this, we're stuck with QC network being done as they are now, inefficiently by government largesse.

 

[padamson1]

Again with the electric highway :roll: :lol:

A hard 45 mph speed limit that can't be broken no matter how fast you try to go?

Notes:

• Perhaps it should be less than 70%, but I am using Phil's report that "80%" is really out of total capacity, and more like 85% of available.
• Going below LBW won't help; it will just increase the charging time.
• If you go beyond 80% the charging slows dramatically, and the numbers get worse.
• 25 minutes charge time is very optimistic, since you need to include the time to get off the freeway and get to the charging station.
• 25 minutes becomes even more unrealistic when you realize you might have to wait for someone else to finish charging.
• I haven't allowed for the fact that multiple charges are likely to overheat the battery, forcing even longer waits.

Ray

Again with the highway is just for driving long distances... :roll:

One can use the electric highway without buying into the "I'm using it to drive long distances just like my ICE" argument. DANandNAN I agree that nobody is going want to drive long distances in a LEAF because who wants to charge more than twice a day? But placing QC's along the highway a reasonable intervals serves more than long distance drivers, it's great for medium distances too. There is a gas station every exit on most highways, is that because ICE cars only have 25mi of range? No it is so that people with different travel plans can refuel when they want to. I use QC's on the electric highway about once a week and I never drive more than 100mi from my house, it is a way for me to charge up quickly on my way to someplace else. You have said that QC is a misnomer, but to me it isn't. 20min is quick, not as quick as a gas station (I just timed a no wait fillup 8min) and it is enough time for lunch or quick shop. Sorry any way you cut it 4-5hrs or 2-2.5 hrs in an FFE (which has no QC capability) is a long time for the same amount of charge.

So you place L2 chargers where people spend a lot of time (office complexes, movies, malls, etc) and QC's where people spend a brief time (highway exits, fast food, isolated stores, etc). As I said before since EV's are currently city commuter cars, it follows that most (not all) EV owners will be within a short range of a city, so placing QC's on highways on the outskirts of the city makes total sense to me.

 

[TimeHorse]

Well, if you're doing it yourselves then sure the policy is gonna be pricey and not what I'd recommend. Mainly I'm looking at rest areas, especially ones with Gasoline stations and in fact although I don't by any stretch think we need 30,000 CHAdeMO in the U.S. 3,000 dual-gang CHAdeMO / SAE would go a long way if strategically places along the nation's Interstates..

Again with the electric highway :roll: :lol:

Well with QC you suddenly have an unlimited range EV. What's not to like???

A hard 45 mph speed limit that can't be broken no matter how fast you try to go?

Notes:

• Perhaps it should be less than 70%, but I am using Phil's report that "80%" is really out of total capacity, and more like 85% of available.
• Going below LBW won't help; it will just increase the charging time.
• If you go beyond 80% the charging slows dramatically, and the numbers get worse.
• 25 minutes charge time is very optimistic, since you need to include the time to get off the freeway and get to the charging station.
• 25 minutes becomes even more unrealistic when you realize you might have to wait for someone else to finish charging.
• I haven't allowed for the fact that multiple charges are likely to overheat the battery, forcing even longer waits.

Ray

The Leaf at 40MPH max speed means it is not a highway vehicle. An electric highway is not an incentive to sell Leafs. The number of Leaf's that are sold based on a L3 charger placed midway between two cities is very small. If it wasn't a small number we would see an increase in sales. Yes, there are those who can live with parking every 35 minutes, but most cannot. The Leaf needs a larger battery and fast charging before folks will consider it as their highway vehicle. Until there is a vehicle that can travel at 60-65MPH including charging time L3 highways are not necessary.

Thank you Dan for finally sharing some numbers. Now, I agree with the chart's number in that I find no obvious fault in them. The number we want is 70% miles between L3 at a given speed and yes, you have to stop about 3 times more than you do with an average ICE vehicle (ICE vehicles typically have a 300 or so mile range). And for the ICE vehicle needing fuel, it also hast to pull off the highway at an exit so I think that time is a wash or at least just 3 times worse. Now, 8 min to fuel may be optimistic but have you ever been to a rest area in New Jersey? Queue up my friend because there's no self-serve. 8 minutes!? Ha! And when I used to get petrol at COSTCO it was typically 3 cars deep. Hmm, 3 cars + 8 minutes per fueling = 24 minutes! Oh, so I'd wait just as long with the EV as I did with my ICE. No complaints here!

Now, yes, I will admit if the L3 is getting hammered the wait will be terrible. But you know what, you can't have it both ways Dan! I gave you an every-3-days scenario with a 17 year ROI because you said those stations never get used. Surely a little more than twice a week is typical if your pessimistic view of usage is correct. And if that is indeed the case you are almost *never* gonna see another EV occupying the L3! The odds would be incredible! Even on a busy weekend like Labor Day, just unheard of at even an average of 3 in one day.

OTOH, if you're wrong and that station is gonna be used all the time, say 17 times more, then we're down to a 1 year ROI and really, if the station has a 1 year ROI where it's basically generating profit after 1 year you *know* they're gonna build more. At least, they'll try too but it might mean the power utility would need to get involved as even the dual-gang units are an either-or system with a switch-over. That's a lot of 3-phase already and 2 simultaneously would be expensive. But you're at 1 year ROI so the second one maybe is 5 years with the way your making money hand over fist (though I admit I've not checked the numbers on a second unit).

Finally, keep in mind we hypermile because we want range. But if we're going distance, we want speed and as the chart clearly shows 75 mph average speed may have us stopping off every 35 minutes but it nets us 44 mph. Maybe it means one more leg stretch but 44 mph isn't that bad even if it does add an extra hour to your journey. I mean, what's 8 hours as opposed to 7? Especially when you're stretching your legs all the time.

Not saying I'd want to do that all the time, but in a pinch it's nice to know I can rather than renting an ICE with all it's yucky fuel or dealing with air travel and renting at destination (and wishing I could rent another LEAF).

But for me it's all about the business model. I'll use it, I'm sure others will. My goal is to see if I can get enough users and a low enough cost that 10 year ROI with tax credits is possible. In fact, capital depreciation may make 10 year ROI already possible with no credits but I think without the extra carrot from the State/Commonwealth/Province it's gonna be hard to get this afoot on the East Coast. Not impossible, but hard. And better again IMHO be it via private business than government. Let business buy into the risk backed by a instant, tax year credit and then reap the rewards long-term. It's viable but I choose to focus on the credits to sweeten the deal or at least low-interest loans.

L3 in the cities has already been discussed. It's very expensive and there's very few cars willing to pay for it. If there was a market for them, we'd see new L3 stations popping up every day.

There at least we agree: for the most part city driving at an average speed of 35 mph isn't gonna run the battery down quite as fast to begin with so you increase your range and shorten your distances and some opportune L2 or even L1 at your various points of interest should cover you. However, this isn't necessarily cross-commuting on mostly highway. There you better not make a habit of going over 80 mi or have Charge at Work in place. Alas I have days when I do need to go more than 80 mi and can't charge at work and let me tell you if I can't charge at my after-work activity I'm sitting in a dark dealership for a an hour or 2 to get home: total waste of my time.