Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[GregS]

No idea. This is fresh from a Nissan tech as of yesterday. Bizarre. I'm new to this forum--would you mind sharing the capacity gauge percentages if you have them handy? Thanks.

 

[dhanson865]

Nissan informs me that the battery capacity gauge bars ACTUAL percentages is proprietary information and cannot be shared with owners, as is the percentage of battery capacity held in reserve when battery is drained to "zero" on the gauge.

Let me guess someone at a dealer told you that baloney?

 

[GregS]

I was told that by phone techs and a regional service tech. My dealership techs were actually trying to be more helpful--they just didn't seem to know the answers.

 

[dhanson865]

No idea. This is fresh from a Nissan tech as of yesterday. Bizarre. I'm new to this forum--would you mind sharing the capacity gauge percentages if you have them handy? Thanks.

I'm not going to worry about duplicates at the cusp, I'm sure you aren't worried about the last tenth of a percent. Oh and there are two kinds of bars

capacity bars
100% to 85% = 12 bars (15%)
85% to 78.75% = 11 bars (6.25%)
78.75% to 72.5% = 10 bars (6.25%)
72.5% to 66.25% = 9 bars (6.25%)
66.25% to 60% = 8 bars (6.25%)
60% to 53.75% = 7 bars (6.25%)
53.75% to 47.5% = 6 bars (6.25%)
47.5% to 41.25% = 5 bars (6.25%)
41.25% to 35% = 4 bars (6.25%)
35% to 28.75% = 3 bars (6.25%)
28.75% to 22.5% = 2 bars (6.25%)
22.5% to 16.25% = 1 bar (6.25%)



charge bars http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=101293" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
100% to 91.5% = 12 bars (8.5%)
91.5% to 84% = 11 bars (7.5%)
84% to 77.9% = 10 bars (6.1%)
77.9% to 70.8% = 9 bars (7.1%)
70.8% to 66.2% = 8 bars (4.6%)
66.2% to 58% = 7 bars (8.2%)
58% to 50.9% = 6 bars (7.1%)
50.9% to 43.4% = 5 bars (7.5%)
43.4% to 36.3 = 4 bars (7.1%)
36.3% to 31.3% = 3 bars (5%)
31.3% to 26% = 2 bars (5.3%)
26% to 17.4% = 1 bar (8.6%)*
Low battery
Very low battery
Turtle

*see range chart and other threads for how dangerously quick you can drop from 1 bar to turtle. Don't rely on expected range at low states of charge.

and note the charge percents I gave were based on a 100% capacity battery all the charge bars get modified if the capacity is below 100%.

edit: fixed typo on capacity bar 8, thanks to user "91040" for catching that.

 

[GregS]

Great, thanks!

 

[thimel]

FWIW, this is one of my discussion points during the LEAF Advisory Board trip to Japan coming up. If anyone else thinks they are likely to be similarly affected, let me know and I'll take a tally.

I've had my car for 41 months and 32,000 miles. I'm at 77% capacity according to LEAF Spy and have last 2 capacity bars. I'll probably miss the warrantee by a few months. Love the car, but would be nice to have better warrantee coverage.

 

[edatoakrun]

="TimLee"... the later item has been extensively tested and documented by customers.
21 to 21.5 kWh usable out of 24 kWh pack ultimate capacity.

Not exactly.

Actually, AFAIK the only accurate testing and documentation available, is from the AVTA study of six 2012 LEAFs:

Which showed an initial static capacity ranging from 23.24 to 23.59 kwh, with an average of ~23.4 kWh.
p.15:
http://www4.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/resources/merit-review/sites/default/files/vss113_francfort_2013_o.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And, (for the four of those six taken out on the 45mph new range test) an initial available capacity ranging from 20.8 to 21.4, and averaging 21.0 kWh.
p.5:
http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/prog_info/SAEHybridSymposium2014.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course, a larger test sample would almost surely show even greater variation in capacity, and perhaps a larger or smaller shortfall from the 24 kWh new initial static capacity Nissan specified in its statements to 2011-12 LEAF buyers, as well as the EPA, and other government agencies.

="TimLee"...So why keep calling the info proprietary :?: :?: :?:

Because, IMO, Nissan probably would like to limit the LEAF battery capacity discussion to "degradation", which was disclosed to all buyers/lessees, and can be managed cheaply and easily by settling the class action suite prior to discovery, conducting a PR program including the extended capacity warranty (and I hope, a future pro-rated pack exchange program?) and promoting Nissan's preferred storyline (through Nissan's LAB , etc.) rather than revealing all it actually knows about 2011-12 (and later) LEAF initial battery capacity, and whether those facts could ever be considered as having been materially misrepresented, either to LEAF buyers or government agencies.

 

[mwalsh]

Because, IMO, Nissan probably would like to limit the LEAF battery capacity discussion to "degradation", which was disclosed to all buyers/lessees, and can be managed cheaply and easily by settling the class action suit prior to discovery, conducting a PR program including the extended capacity warranty (and I hope, a future pro-rated pack exchange program?) and promoting Nissan's preferred storyline (through Nissan's LAB , etc.) rather than revealing all it actually knows about 2011-12 (and later) LEAF initial battery capacity, and whether those facts could ever be considered as having been materially misrepresented, either to LEAF buyers or government agencies.

Which is why one of us needs to sue properly, in whatever forum still available, and subpoena for full discovery. The one thing that blew my mind about the Judge Kozinski interview was the contention that plaintiff's counsel was happy enough with a few abstract documents fed by Toyota and what Nissan was willing to offer. WHAT??? :shock:

 

[TimLee]

Actually, AFAIK the only accurate testing and documentation available, is from the AVTA study of six 2012 LEAFs:
...

I agree you are correct on that. It is the only formal highly rigorous scientifically documented information.
But all that informal customer information collected from the vehicle matches the AVTA study very well.

 

[TimLee]

Which is why one of us needs to sue properly, in whatever forum still available, and subpoena for full discovery. The one thing that blew my mind about the Judge Kozinski interview was the contention that plaintiff's counsel was happy enough with a few abstract documents fed by Toyota and what Nissan was willing to offer. WHAT??? :shock:

Agree.
And if you listen to the whole seminar there are numerous other shocking problems with class actions.
A badly broken system.
But only 110 opted out.
One going it alone will not work.
But even if the 110 try to work together it is a relatively small class.

Unlikely real discovery will ever happen.
Maybe the rumored settlement offer is good enough that everyone will be happy to sweep it under the rug and let Nissan put the brash hypocracy of the whole matter in the rear view mirror.

 

[derkraut]

....

FWIW, this is one of my discussion points during the LEAF Advisory Board trip to Japan coming up. If anyone else thinks they are likely to be similarly affected, let me know and I'll take a tally.

@drees, Thanks for the offer. I live in a cooler part of the SF Bay area and am in a similar situation. I am down one capacity bar and expecting the second one to drop shortly. I will probably miss the warranty deadline by a few months - one of the reasons I opted out.

I'm down 2 capacity bars @ 21K mi and 3 1/2 yrs. (San Diego area--6 miles from the beach). I love this car, but the battery degradation is alarming, considering my driving/charging history. Since my re-sale value is so pathetic, I'll just keep driving it as long as possible. Unless I deliberately abuse it, I most certainly will not be covered under the 5yr/50K capacity warranty. If Nissan wants to be fair to us "early adopters", they should offer traction battery replacement on a pro-rated basis.
Based upon advertised claims when I bought the car, I expected capacity loss from 100 mi. range, to around 70-80 mile range after 5 years/50K mi; but I sure as hell didn't expect to have 50-55 mile range after 21K miles and 3 yrs either. I'm lucky I don't have a lengthy commute, like many of the folks here.

 

[TomT]

I'm currently at 9 bars and 32% capacity loss with 55K and just less than 45 months on the car. I will run out of capacity warranty by mileage long before I run out by time... I always charge to 100% now and have changed the usage of the car somewhat to accommodate the reduced range. So, yes, I am highly affected!

FWIW, this is one of my discussion points during the LEAF Advisory Board trip to Japan coming up. If anyone else thinks they are likely to be similarly affected, let me know and I'll take a tally.

@drees, Thanks for the offer. I live in a cooler part of the SF Bay area and am in a similar situation. I am down one capacity bar and expecting the second one to drop shortly. I will probably miss the warranty deadline by a few months - one of the reasons I opted out.

I'm down 2 capacity bars @ 21K mi and 3 1/2 yrs. (San Diego area--6 miles from the beach). I love this car, but the battery degradation is alarming, considering my driving/charging history. Since my re-sale value is so pathetic, I'll just keep driving it as long as possible. Unless I deliberately abuse it, I most certainly will not be covered under the 5yr/50K capacity warranty. If Nissan wants to be fair to us "early adopters", they should offer traction battery replacement on a pro-rated basis. Based upon advertised claims when I bought the car, I expected capacity loss from 100 mi. range, to around 70-80 mile range after 5 years/50K mi; but I sure as hell didn't expect to have 50-55 mile range after 21K miles and 3 yrs either. I'm lucky I don't have a lengthy commute, like many of the folks here.

 

[edatoakrun]

Actually, AFAIK the only accurate testing and documentation available, is from the AVTA study of six 2012 LEAFs:
...

I agree you are correct on that. It is the only formal highly rigorous scientifically documented information.
But all that informal customer information collected from the vehicle matches the AVTA study very well.

If you are referring to gid/capacity bar loss reports such as those posted on this and other threads, No, I don't think that they "match" at all.

http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/prog_info/IEA_DCFCImpactStudySept2014.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Pages 8-13 summarize capacity and range loss data.

The two L2 charged LEAFs retain over 75% of their initial battery capacity (and ~79% of their 45 mph range) after 50,000 Phoenix test miles.

Any of you Phoenix drivers still have 10 capacity bars and over 75% gid capacity left after 50,000 miles?

Do you think that the AVTA L2 study cars still showed ten capacity bars, and over 75% capacity from their gid reports, after 50,000 miles?

As discussed:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=14271" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TimLee]

="TimLee"... the later item has been extensively tested and documented by customers.
21 to 21.5 kWh usable out of 24 kWh pack ultimate capacity.

Not exactly.

...
And, (for the four of those six taken out on the 45mph new range test) an initial available capacity ranging from 20.8 to 21.4, and averaging 21.0 kWh.
p.5:
http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/prog_info/SAEHybridSymposium2014.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Those match.

 

[electricfuture]

I finally dropped the 4th bar at 43,000 miles with only a 50 mile city/highway range on my 2011 Leaf here in San Diego. I am bringing it in tomorrow to start the replacement process They told me it could take a few days to get the new battery in - but with Thanksgiving I figure it probably won't be replaced until next week.

 

[DaveEV]

I finally dropped the 4th bar at 43,000 miles with only a 50 mile city/highway range on my 2011 Leaf here in San Diego. I am bringing it in tomorrow to start the replacement process They told me it could take a few days to get the new battery in - but with Thanksgiving I figure it probably won't be replaced until next week.

Impressive to lose that much capacity so quickly in San Diego. Where exactly are you and what are your normal usage patterns like?

 

[dgpcolorado]

Impressive to lose that much capacity so quickly in San Diego. Where exactly are you and what are your normal usage patterns like?

I was wondering the same thing. El Cajon perhaps?

 

[electricfuture]

Where exactly are you and what are your normal usage patterns like?

Rancho Penasquitos near 56 & Black Mountain Rd. Daily city highway driving about 40-50 miles. I travel to the coast often and live at least 800' above sea level on the mountain. So elevation changes maybe have hastened the decline. The car is garage kept and charged nightly.

 

[electricfuture]

Here is an update: Nissan told the dealership that replacement batteries for the 2011 Leaf are on restricted ordering and that I would have to wait 4-5 weeks before the battery would ship. I know previously people were getting the replacement battery in 4-5 days!!!

 

[mwalsh]

Here is an update: Nissan told the dealership that replacement batteries for the 2011 Leaf are on restricted ordering and that I would have to wait 4-5 weeks before the battery would ship. I know previously people were getting the replacement battery in 4-5 days!!!

Hmm... I wonder if this is where we start seeing the refurbished to 9 bar packs used for warranty repairs instead of new ones.