Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[DaveinOlyWA]

Just read this article regarding advanced degradation in Japanese Taxi's

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1082483_japans-electric-taxis-falling-out-of-favor-with-drivers

Wonder what Nissan will do to resolve this issue?

not sure the real beef is the degradation of the batteries or the # of charging stations available. Yokohama "had" a taxi experiment that was supposed to have ended last year. it was still going (or at least LEAF taxi's were still going) when on our trip there last month.

the article states losing customers due to having to charge so often and also implied the drivers had to go somewhere to charge. an easy fix

http://cleantechnica.com/2012/04/14/japans-first-electric-taxi-project-kicks-off/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


one of our group Ruud, owns a LEAF taxi company in the Netherlands and reports some degradation but nothing to the degree implied in the article. he took care of the charging issue by installing his own network

http://reports.nissan-global.com/EN/?p=3348" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

point is (as always) its easy to spin the article to fit the need. not sure if there is a real problem in Kyoto or just a disgruntled taxi owner who got into something that did not turn out as expected.

 

[scottf200]

Just read this article regarding advanced degradation in Japanese Taxi's
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1082483_japans-electric-taxis-falling-out-of-favor-with-drivers
Wonder what Nissan will do to resolve this issue?

Is this case us needing to use the right tool for the right job? Range cut in half and QCs more than doubling does not sustainable for their remaining year (min 3 year ref below)

Where a 60-mile range was once common in regular use, some are finding that cut to as low as 30 miles--and to save energy as much as possible, some drivers are shunning the car's heater in favor of chemical pocket warmers, and even blankets.

Degredation of the battery pack has also had an effect on the battery's ability to take a quick charge. A 15-minute charge has turned into a 40-minute one for many drivers. They can't travel as far, and they can't spend as much time on the road--and it's ruining business, for some. Customers requesting longer trips are even being turned down.

There's no get-out for the drivers, either. To qualify for the government's subsidy, the electric cars must be run for a minimum of three years. That's a year too long for some--“I’m getting out of this business,” said one driver, “This is no way to earn a living.”

 

[surfingslovak]

one of our group Ruud, owns a LEAF taxi company in the Netherlands and reports some degradation but nothing to the degree implied in the article. he took care of the charging issue by installing his own network

http://reports.nissan-global.com/EN/?p=3348" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for posting that. Getting data from edge cases like taxi companies can be very illuminating. Especially, if it's real data. Ruud's service appears to be only about a year old? How many kilometers on these cars on average, would you know?

point is (as always) its easy to spin the article to fit the need. not sure if there is a real problem in Kyoto or just a disgruntled taxi owner who got into something that did not turn out as expected.

How many of these articles will be necessary for Nissan to right the ship? The easiest thing is to dismiss any real issue as a problem of a vocal minority or some EV crank, who works for Big Oil. This needs to stop. While we absolutely should take the press critically, and most of all should pay attention to real data, there is no need to be immediately dismissive when such stories surface.

I would like to know when the Osaka drivers recharge, and what the average trip length was. Also, their energy economy. Gid count would be nice too. The unfortunate thing is, most reporters don't know to ask such questions, and yes, much like Mr. Broder, they write to drive traffic to their publications. I'm sure Japan Today got a few hits from this story.

Based on what Steve has been reporting from his LEAF in the last few months, I'm inclined to believe that this could be related to the cycle life of AESC batteries. That's just an educated guess, of course, and I could be wrong here. It will be interesting to see what happens when more vehicles hit 50K miles. I believe that's where the trouble started for Steve. He was still reasonably happy last August, and has lost only slightly more battery capacity than an average LEAF would in the PNW.

 

[JPWhite]

, much like Mr. Broder, they write to drive traffic to their publications. I'm sure Japan Today got a few hits from that story.

Interesting you'd bring up the NYT debacle.

Notice how quickly Tesla did damage control. There is an old adage, be in charge of the media, or the media will take charge. Musk understands this. Be interesting to see if Nissan respond or stay silent.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Kyoto could be a heat issue. not sure what the weather is like there but it was pretty warm for Jan when we were in Yokohama and guessing weather cant be that much different. it is situated near water so guessing a marine climate.

there was also (apparently successful) Yokohama experiment that was supposed to have ended last year where they essentially had more charging support i am guessing.

now GCR basically cut and pasted the same article and one reader responded with a map of charging stations in Kyoto and they were basically spread all thru out town about 5-10 km apart so not sure where that "8 chargers" comes from unless they are talking about a single district in Kyoto.

now its easy to see Ruud as being being advantaged because of much cooler weather i am guessing so but one thing i will not do is take this article as fact.

i smell a rat and the odor is getting stronger and stronger by the minute

 

[surfingslovak]

now GCR basically cut and pasted the same article and one reader responded with a map of charging stations in Kyoto and they were basically spread all thru out town about 5-10 km apart so not sure where that "8 chargers" comes from unless they are talking about a single district in Kyoto.

Could you please post that map?

now its easy to see Ruud as being being advantaged because of much cooler weather i am guessing so but one thing i will not do is take this article as fact.

We have the ability to model the effect of different climates, and it should be possible to compare Osaka to Amsterdam. Yes, the latter is probably cooler, but with taxi fleets, I would think that it's the cycle life that will eventually matter more than calendar life.

i smell a rat and the odor is getting stronger and stronger by the minute

You said that initially about Steve's LEAF too. What is it with EV advocates, especially the non-technical ones, that they need to take everything on faith and a matter of life and death? Either a story is great, and everything is fabulous, or it's all fabrication, likely sponsored by Big Oil. We will never get the data we need that way. Yes, there are many pieces missing from the Japan Today story, and yes, we don't know what motivated the article. Is it necessary to scream "murder" immediately though instead of trying to get more information?

I took this story as another interesting anecdote, nothing more. It's certainly not more than that at this point. Much like this thread, which was started by azdre before any of us knew what to expect, we learned more along the way. I feel very foolish today that I dismissed her experience as an edge case initially, and I would be much more careful to jump to similar conclusions in the future.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i also said it about Broder's article and that was not taken well either at first.

we need to be reasonable here when reading this stuff. i mean 50% degradation?? believe what you want

the map link was posted by "Just O"


http://goo.gl/maps/pTrxC" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

i am guessing the green dots are Chademos and there are like 20? or so. a prelim scan of the map shows very few stations as far as say 5-6 Km apart?

in these stories when you see one questionable fact AND being totally unfamiliar with the specifics, then that is a red flag. two?

lack of QCs; TOTALLY FALSE

50% degradation? VERY hard to believe.

a near tripling of the charging time? plausible. as the range drops, a higher SOC must be acquired so i let that one go


claims that most of the day is spent getting a charge so no customers; these taxi stands have literally dozens of them sitting there so there is probably at least a 10-20 minute wait between customers.

more than enough time to plug in

again; VERY hard to believe.

The Yokohama taxi experiment apparently went well since its still running more than 6 months after its scheduled end date when we were there and the only apparent difference? more charging support. as i understand it (the article is vague as always) there is one on the charger while the other is ferrying passengers

http://cleantechnica.com/2012/04/14/japans-first-electric-taxi-project-kicks-off/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[surfingslovak]

OK, thank you. I posted the CHAdeMO map for Osaka metro and for Kyoto below. More than eight chargers, so this does not check out. Are the cab drivers supposed to use their company's stations or it does not matter, because they are all free anyway?

The Clean Technica article you referenced is great, but almost a year old. It might be interesting to get data on vehicles that are similar age (close to 24 months), have over 50K miles, and been quick charged regularly.

As to the 50% range loss claim: it has been observed before that more loss than one would expect based on battery degradation alone is possible. In fact, range loss above LBW could be twice the battery capacity loss. Several owners in Phoenix have reported that, and I have personally piloted a car that behaved this way last September. The cab drivers probably don't know that, and blamed everything on the battery. They also clearly did not drive their LEAFs close to VLB, and recharged very conservatively. Based on what we have seen before, there is very good chance that this will exacerbate range loss.

While I appreciate this exchange, let me stress again that there is no reason to get bent out of shape just because someone casually posts a story like this. It's an interesting anecdote, and I take it as such, not the end of the world. Let's hope that we won't hear more similar reports in the future, and that there will be an economically viable battery refresh program in place sometime soon. As Advisory Board member, isn't that something you could influence?

Kyoto:

Osaka:

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I agree that a followup on the yokohama taxi experiment along with resulfs is key but have been lookinv for over a week since the story popped on FB and having no luck.

Also Ruud is doing analysis on his fleet that startdd like nov 2011 but states some degradation but nothkng major and hesays he has afew taxis hitting i think 75,000 km but he has his own charging network

 

[surfingslovak]

Great, thank you for that Dave! Please post more data if and when you get it. 75,000 km is getting up there. I think that's about 14 months of operation and 3350 miles per month on average on their high-mileage LEAFs.

 

[GRA]

Most of Japan falls into the Humid Subtropical climate category (Koppen system),

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humid_subtropical_climate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rather than the Marine West Coast (aka Oceanic or Maritime) category of areas like the PNW and NW Europe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanic_climate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It definitely is hotter in summer.

 

[surfingslovak]

If you look at the battery aging model in the Wiki, which Stoaty invested so much time in, Tokyo ranks about the same as LA in terms of effective battery temperature. We don't have anything for Amsterdam, but Paris is on par with Seattle. This would imply approximately 40% faster capacity loss in Tokyo based on climate alone.

 

[Herm]

Wonder what Nissan will do to resolve this issue?

There are no battery issues in Osaka or Phoenix, per Nissan..normal tear and wear

 

[TomT]

L.A. is a large place with a wide swing in climate, from cool coastal to very hot inland. You need to define the terms for it be meaningful in a comparison...

If you look at the battery aging model in the Wiki, which Stoaty invested so much time in, Tokyo ranks about the same as LA in terms of effective battery temperature.

 

[surfingslovak]

L.A. is a large place with a wide swing in climate, from cool coastal to very hot inland. You need to define the terms for it be meaningful in a comparison...

If you look at the battery aging model in the Wiki, which Stoaty invested so much time in, Tokyo ranks about the same as LA in terms of effective battery temperature.

Right, Stoaty's normal is LA Civic Center. Ota, Tokyo is 2% away from that in terms of temperature impact (effects of solar loading excluded).

 

[RickS]

I received a "we're not going to buy it back" letter from Nissan today after I started the BBB arbitration process. Strangely this arrived the day before I was going to mail the copies of everything the BBB requested I send in.

 

[Herm]

Take them to small claims court

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Bummer. I think it's going to get interesting again in AZ and other hot climates this summer...

 

[ewodraska]

I received a "we're not going to buy it back" letter from Nissan today after I started the BBB arbitration process. Strangely this arrived the day before I was going to mail the copies of everything the BBB requested I send in.

I got the same letter from Nissan. BBB is denying my claim as well, they say "you are not alleging a defect in materials or workmanship". I clearly stated in my letter that the battery is defective in hot climates. I sent in my appeal yesterday.

Pretty sure I will lose two more bars this summer. First and last Nissan I buy.

 

[edatoakrun]

Might be a good time for a reality check re battery capacity bar loss, and what it means.

The reports here:

http://mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss#four_bars" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Indicate only a single report of capacity bar loss since October 12 2012, as opposed to over a hundred over the same time period the previous Summer.

All of our LEAFs have had their batteries lose a portion of their total capacity over these Winter months, but the lack of bar loss reports, IMO, offers clear statistical proof that the "gauge error" in the capacity bar reports is under-reporting the winter loss of battery capacity, just as capacity bars clearly over-reported capacity loss last Summer.

Soon the capacity bar losses will pick up again, unless Nissan fixes the problem before then. Accurate reporting of these events will be useful, but please remember what last Summer's and this Winter's experience has shown, for the limited accuracy of bar losses, as actual indicators of battery capacity.