Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[ALLWATZ]

Many of you will be pleasantly surprised with what Nissan will be doing in the area of LEAF customer satisfaction in 2013.

Found it, this is what OrientExpress is talking about, http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1081280_nissan-offers-almost-10k-cash-back-on-leaf-electric-cars?fbfanpage" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Just more money off instead of admitting there is a problem.

Not sure if I agree this is the same thing. The link you showed is just a cash back sales incentive to move new cars faster. What we're talking about here is a proposed remedy for the battery capacity loss problem to hopefully replace the need for Nissan individual car buybacks.

My point exactly. Only some of those on MNL are talking (wishing really) about a remedy, not Nissan. As with American car makers, the usual remedy is cash back to solve a "problem". Nothing was forthcoming, nothing has been forthcoming and nothing will be forthcoming concerning battery warranty.

 

[leafkabob]

I posted this on another thread, and for what it is worth I believe Nissan will make an announcement of some kind about a battery warranty, but I'm not hopeful that it will be enough to get me to keep my car.

I reported a while back that the arbitration dept has my buyback check on their desk, but was allowing me until 12/21/12 to see if Nissan's announcement of a "remedy" was going to come out. The guy called me yesterday and left a message asking me to wait until 12/28/12 until I make a decision. I called back this morning and asked if that meant Nissan was going to make the announcement on 12/28 and he said that is what the plan is, although he hedged it by saying, "anything can happen to change the plan."

 

[JPWhite]

Or would I be better off waiting for the 'remedy' in 2013?

What issue are you having that you need a remedy?

The downstream effect of the Arizona battery debacle affects all LEAF owners. If a 2011 LEAF is next to worthless in say 3 years, that's a problem. If as some fear the problem will deepen this next summer, the value of all LEAF's may suffer.

The remedy I think we all look for is the loss of downstream resale value. A reasonable pro-rated capacity warranty should protect non-arizona owners at least.

 

[downeykp]

I could agree more. This effects all owners.

Or would I be better off waiting for the 'remedy' in 2013?

What issue are you having that you need a remedy?

The downstream effect of the Arizona battery debacle affects all LEAF owners. If a 2011 LEAF is next to worthless in say 3 years, that's a problem. If as some fear the problem will deepen this next summer, the value of all LEAF's may suffer.

The remedy I think we all look for is the loss of downstream resale value. A reasonable pro-rated capacity warranty should protect non-arizona owners at least.

 

[jspearman]

I posted this on another thread, and for what it is worth I believe Nissan will make an announcement of some kind about a battery warranty, but I'm not hopeful that it will be enough to get me to keep my car.

I reported a while back that the arbitration dept has my buyback check on their desk, but was allowing me until 12/21/12 to see if Nissan's announcement of a "remedy" was going to come out. The guy called me yesterday and left a message asking me to wait until 12/28/12 until I make a decision. I called back this morning and asked if that meant Nissan was going to make the announcement on 12/28 and he said that is what the plan is, although he hedged it by saying, "anything can happen to change the plan."

A battery warranty would be a cruel joke. Unless they plan to replace the battery every year here, then it's worthless.

 

[Herm]

What issue are you having that you need a remedy?

The remedy I think we all look for is the loss of downstream resale value. A reasonable pro-rated capacity warranty should protect non-arizona owners at least.

Thanks, what do you think a reasonable warranty would be to protect resale value?.. put your numbers in before Nissan makes the announcement.

1. 5 years/60k miles down to 80% remaining capacity. Criteria for replacement would be 80% capacity before the 5th year is up.. prorated to 5 years, full battery cost $7k.

or

2. a low cost replacement battery of lets say $7k, prorated to 10 years.. at 5 years you would pay $3500, at 10 years you would pay $7k.. criteria for replacing the battery is 70% remaining capacity.

Replacement would be a rebuilt pack, and would require trade-in of the old battery. A cost of $7k might be possible if costs keep coming down.. replacement batteries are (probably) the reason for the extra 50k manufacturing capacity.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Replacement would be a rebuilt pack, and would require trade-in of the old battery. A cost of $7k might be possible if costs keep coming down.. replacement batteries are (probably) the reason for the extra 50k manufacturing capacity.

Lots of pie-in-the-sky dreaming there, but I will mention that there is more than the 150,000 max capacity LEAF that will use this battery. The NV-2000 and Infiniti product, and whatever else might come along (although I suspect there will be many cancelled products based on USA LEAF sales).

Obviously, in case nobody has noticed, Nissan tends to stick to script even when it's obvious that they are wrong. The 20,000 LEAF USA sales forecast through the March 2013 fiscal year is one example. 100 mile range (and now 142 miles in Japan !!!) is another example. Batteries are OK and normal.

Some folks just lap it up. The numbers they spew for battery and EV production here have more to do with meeting the terms of their $1.6 billion (of 1.9 available) US government loan (for example, must have XX new green jobs, be operational by end of 2012, etc).

The real number of jobs and batteries, much like range and degradation, will be something COMPLETELY different from Nissan spewage.

 

[mwalsh]

I reported a while back that the arbitration dept has my buyback check on their desk, but was allowing me until 12/21/12 to see if Nissan's announcement of a "remedy" was going to come out. The guy called me yesterday and left a message asking me to wait until 12/28/12 until I make a decision. I called back this morning and asked if that meant Nissan was going to make the announcement on 12/28 and he said that is what the plan is, although he hedged it by saying, "anything can happen to change the plan."

Always be wary of a press release that goes out on a Friday. Corporations only do that when it's "news" they hope is going to be largely ignored or overlooked. :?

 

[leafkabob]

I reported a while back that the arbitration dept has my buyback check on their desk, but was allowing me until 12/21/12 to see if Nissan's announcement of a "remedy" was going to come out. The guy called me yesterday and left a message asking me to wait until 12/28/12 until I make a decision. I called back this morning and asked if that meant Nissan was going to make the announcement on 12/28 and he said that is what the plan is, although he hedged it by saying, "anything can happen to change the plan."

Always be wary of a press release that goes out on a Friday. Corporations only do that when it's "news" they hope is going to be largely ignored or overlooked. :?

I'm not really expecting a 12/28 announcement, given that other folks have been asked to wait until mid-January or later. But maybe they plan to give me the "Orient Express inside early scoop."

 

[jozegovich]

There was a link from the Nissan leafs facebook page, which had a video of this issue.

 

[cwerdna]

There was a link from the Nissan leafs facebook page, which had a video of this issue.

Link? If you click on the time/date on a post, it'll take you to a new page and you can then copy/paste that URL here.

 

[RWatkins]

Or would I be better off waiting for the 'remedy' in 2013?

What issue are you having that you need a remedy?

The downstream effect of the Arizona battery debacle affects all LEAF owners. If a 2011 LEAF is next to worthless in say 3 years, that's a problem. If as some fear the problem will deepen this next summer, the value of all LEAF's may suffer.

The remedy I think we all look for is the loss of downstream resale value. A reasonable pro-rated capacity warranty should protect non-arizona owners at least.

See link for recent announcement about retroactive battery capacity warranty. Sounds like some good news, but it kicks in when capacity drops below 70% / 9 bars. It does put a bottom in to preserve future value though.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/posting.php?mode=quote&f=4&p=253595" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[JRP3]

Very good news.

 

[Joeviocoe]

I'd like to apologize to Tony. I didn't think that he (and the others who participated) would have gotten through to Nissan with his series of tests. I am humbled and delighted they took you seriously. Good job.

 

[azdre]

An update from the OP... After our buyback, we spent a few months with just the Prius and the motorcycle, and finally decided we did need another car in the garage. We drove the FFE, looked at some Civic hybrids, the Volt and for the most part the lack of a real battery warranty kept me from being ok with any of these things. The Volt we decided against for other reasons. The Used Civic Hybrid we tested out was showing 27.4 MPG! Then I remembered a reference on this board to Honda updating some SW and reducing mpgs. We decided we were done with new battery tech in Phoenix for now. We both wish we would have done more research on the specifics of the LEAF before purchase, all of the things this board taught us that no one in Nissan dare disclose. The idea of having to go to those depths again with another vehicle just made me crazy.

We ended up with a fully gas burning 2013 Kia Optima, a beautiful blue with air conditioned leather seats, panoramic roof, etc. We are very happy with our new car so far and really hope the EV experiment in Phoenix shows something we can trade the Prius in for in a few years.

While I'm happy to see that there's a bottom for those that want to keep their LEAF with a new warranty, I worry that buy back remedies for this in severe situations will no longer be an option.

If you warranty 70% at 5 years, how can 72% at 18 months be considered ok, or gradual?

 

[Herm]

Azdre, Hyundai offers a lifetime warranty on the battery in their hybrid.. perhaps Kia does the same?.

What is the latest word on the Volt warranty?.. does it cover capacity or not?.. I thought they were required to cover it due to Federal emissions laws.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

I was told by the dealer that Volt capacity warranty is 70% and 100KM but it was not clear how they will fix the battery.

 

[ALLWATZ]

An update from the OP... After our buyback, we spent a few months with just the Prius and the motorcycle, and finally decided we did need another car in the garage. We drove the FFE, looked at some Civic hybrids, the Volt and for the most part the lack of a real battery warranty kept me from being ok with any of these things. The Volt we decided against for other reasons. The Used Civic Hybrid we tested out was showing 27.4 MPG! Then I remembered a reference on this board to Honda updating some SW and reducing mpgs. We decided we were done with new battery tech in Phoenix for now. We both wish we would have done more research on the specifics of the LEAF before purchase, all of the things this board taught us that no one in Nissan dare disclose. The idea of having to go to those depths again with another vehicle just made me crazy.

We ended up with a fully gas burning 2013 Kia Optima, a beautiful blue with air conditioned leather seats, panoramic roof, etc. We are very happy with our new car so far and really hope the EV experiment in Phoenix shows something we can trade the Prius in for in a few years.

While I'm happy to see that there's a bottom for those that want to keep their LEAF with a new warranty, I worry that buy back remedies for this in severe situations will no longer be an option.

If you warranty 70% at 5 years, how can 72% at 18 months be considered ok, or gradual?

Agreed. Now that they can claim a real warranty, why would they buy them back? This renders the terms gradual (or rapid, the exact term I used in defense for my arbitration) moot. The warranty will kick in at 70%, so even in my instance of a 22% loss in a year means that if I were to lose another bar by the next summer (and the warranty would not yet be applicable), I would have only 40+ miles of usable range for that entire time. Then after losing a 4th bar (and probably down to 30+ miles of range), I would then be able to take it in so that they could restore me to only 40+ miles of range (9 bars). It's really a win-win for Nissan. Say they are offering a warranty, no longer deal with "customer satisfaction" buybacks, go ahead and claim the car is viable in all climates (even Dubai now) and really only do warranty work on very few cars that fall under a restrictive clause. Once again I agree that I am happy to see a bottom but, unfortunately the bottom is very low in this case.

 

[surfingslovak]

Azdre, Hyundai offers a lifetime warranty on the battery in their hybrid.. perhaps Kia does the same?.

What is the latest word on the Volt warranty?.. does it cover capacity or not?.. I thought they were required to cover it due to Federal emissions laws.

Kia should have similar coverage, since it's essentially the same company like Hyundai now. The Volt always had a 8 years/100K 70% capacity warranty, which was upped to 10 years/150K in California and other CARB states, I believe. Although there were no instances of hot-weather degraded Volts anywhere, the owners on gm-volt.com think that they might have found one now. This particular car baked on a dealer parking lot in Texas for a while, unplugged. That said, and while I wish the main protagonists of this thread well, it's a bit disheartening to see that four of them, by my count anyway, were knocked back to cars with combustion engines. This includes a hybrid and a car run on biodiesel. Batteries will only get better, and it's a shame that we apparently can't find a way to make it work now. I think we are all still learning when it comes to lihium-ion batteries in automotive applications, and it will take a concerted effort of all involved to make it stick, and find a workable arrangement. Hopefully the situation will be different and better, when you are shopping for your next car.

 

[LEAFfan]

An update from the OP... After our buyback, we spent a few months with just the Prius and the motorcycle, and finally decided we did need another car in the garage. We drove the FFE, looked at some Civic hybrids, the Volt and for the most part the lack of a real battery warranty kept me from being ok with any of these things. The Volt we decided against for other reasons. The Used Civic Hybrid we tested out was showing 27.4 MPG! Then I remembered a reference on this board to Honda updating some SW and reducing mpgs. We decided we were done with new battery tech in Phoenix for now. We both wish we would have done more research on the specifics of the LEAF before purchase, all of the things this board taught us that no one in Nissan dare disclose. The idea of having to go to those depths again with another vehicle just made me crazy.

We ended up with a fully gas burning 2013 Kia Optima, a beautiful blue with air conditioned leather seats, panoramic roof, etc. We are very happy with our new car so far and really hope the EV experiment in Phoenix shows something we can trade the Prius in for in a few years.

While I'm happy to see that there's a bottom for those that want to keep their LEAF with a new warranty, I worry that buy back remedies for this in severe situations will no longer be an option.

If you warranty 70% at 5 years, how can 72% at 18 months be considered ok, or gradual?

Sorry to hear that Azdre. That's why a two-year lease will work for most people here. IMO, until there are major improvements in batteries, leasing makes the most sense.