Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[leafkabob]

I proposed a simple solution to Nissan: Offer a battery warranty (it can even be an optional warranty) that covers battery degradation.

Orient Express hinted at a possible battery warranty for the 2013.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10687&start=180#p245301
With the 2013 battery being the same as the 2011-2012, I don't see how they could warrantee more than 70% (just a guess on my part), at least for those of us in Arizona.

 

[leafkabob]

Im sorry to see this thread cool down with the weather...I have gained back about 5 miles doing the cooler weather...Im very unhappy with Nissan not contacting me after losing 2 bars or 25 miles...I feel very deceived by Nissans miscalculations in what heat does to the batteries in hotter cities...
I would expect that by the end of next summer I may be angry enough just to leave it @ Nissans dealership and let them do what ever the crap they want to with the car.....

Mark, I agree that Nissan should have made the initial effort to resolve the hot climate battery degradation issue, but I would encourage you to not wait for them to contact you. I think you would be much better off contacting them and telling them what you want. Did you lease or did you purchase? I get the feeling they are more amenable to resolving purchases over leases, but I could be wrong about that.

 

[cwerdna]

I firmly believe that, with the Leaf, I have owned both my first and last Nissan...

Same here, and I'm in a northern state. Temporary range reduction was anticipated, but I don't like supporting a company that has demonstrated it doesn't stand behind its cars.

Nissan's response and behavior (at least initially, when these issues first came to light) has been baffling. It seems Nissan has stood behind some of their other cars with http://www.nissanassist.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. IIRC, the first item to appear on that site (and was the only item for awhile) was the CVT warranty extension (http://www.nissanassist.com/web/CVT/index.php?menu=8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

I'm happy that my mom's 07 Altima Hybrid is included in there even though its CVT design is that of Toyota's power split device (it's likely identical to the part used in the Camry Hybrid sold during that timeframe) and is NOTHING like the belt and cone design of all the other Jatco CVTs involved (used in Nissan's non-hybrids).

They've also stood behind (more or less) 03 and 04 350Z owners who hit the infamous front tire cupping and feathering issue. (Long story...) I got an alignment and my two front tires replaced for free due to that, as I was also having that issue.

 

[Volusiano]

Im sorry to see this thread cool down with the weather...I have gained back about 5 miles doing the cooler weather...Im very unhappy with Nissan not contacting me after losing 2 bars or 25 miles...I feel very deceived by Nissans miscalculations in what heat does to the batteries in hotter cities...
I would expect that by the end of next summer I may be angry enough just to leave it @ Nissans dealership and let them do what ever the crap they want to with the car.....

Mark, I agree that Nissan should have made the initial effort to resolve the hot climate battery degradation issue, but I would encourage you to not wait for them to contact you. I think you would be much better off contacting them and telling them what you want. Did you lease or did you purchase? I get the feeling they are more amenable to resolving purchases over leases, but I could be wrong about that.

I thought that if I had a case opened with them and contacted them twice already (once on the first bar loss and twice on the second bar loss), that would be enough. After all, what do they think people take the time to open up a case # for?

But now that I'm hearing that you've had success from your case after your third contact, I will contact them again the third time tomorrow to tell them what I want. I don't have any more to lose by not calling them again anyway. If anything, I'm curious to see if they had conveniently close my case # off already without my agreement or not.

 

[TomT]

+1!
Same here!

I thought that if I had a case opened with them and contacted them twice already (once on the first bar loss and twice on the second bar loss), that would be enough. After all, what do they think people take the time to open up a case # for?

 

[edatoakrun]

Im sorry to see this thread cool down with the weather...I have gained back about 5 miles doing the cooler weather...

Please explain how you came to this conclusion.

Many have reported increasing gid counts with the cooler weather, but AFAIK, no one has determined weather this is actually representative of increasing available battery capacity (as can, IMO, only be estimated by a range test or recharge capacity test) or just erroneous reporting of Wh per gid.

If LEAFs are actually gaining available battery capacity with cooler temperature (which I have not observed with my LEAF yet) the only explanation I am aware of would be that the LEAF BMS limits the available battery capacity in response to high temperatures.

As I posted on this thread,over six months ago, as the first bar losses were being reported:

Posted by edatoakrun: Sat May 26, 2012 6:22 am

After multiple weeks of multiple reports of bar loss and gid counts, I think some fundamental information must be gathered, to put this issue in perspective.

What actual battery capacity have the 11 bar cars, and those who report lower GID counts, lost?

I believe Phil’s report that, from the LEAF-idyllic climate of Berkeley California, The LEAF make about 93% to 94% of the battery capacity available to the driver, and that charging is limited to 95%-96% of potential battery capacity, is well accepted.

I am not aware of Phil's, or anyone else's report, of tests on 11 bar or other extreme-temperature LEAFs, to see if that 95%-96% is still available, or if LEAF battery management, to protect the battery pack from degradation caused by higher charge rates in high temperatures, actually restricts the maximum charge at “100%”, to some lower percentage of the potential charge level.

In fact, the only real report of Arizona gid counts over time, that by TickTock (IIRC, please post it-too damn many threads to search!) shows just this pattern, of the battery pack accepting a higher SOC (at least as indicated by higher gid counts) in lower temperature conditions, as plotted seasonally . Others have reported, anecdotally, of higher gid counts when charging at lower (than very high) temperatures.

I have no doubt that the 11 bar cars have lost significant battery capacity from new. Every LEAF has lost some battery capacity from new, and will continue to, every year, until the battery is exchanged, or for the life of the car. But since, AFAIK, we still have no idea how the LEAF battery management reacts to high temperatures, if it limits the maximum charge in high heat conditions to protect battery life, we really don’t know what 11 bars, or lower gid counts mean, in terms of long-term loss of battery capacity...

 

[myleaf]

Im sorry to see this thread cool down with the weather...I have gained back about 5 miles doing the cooler weather...

If LEAFs are actually gaining available battery capacity with cooler temperature (which I have not observed with my LEAF yet) the only explanation I am aware of would be that the LEAF BMS limits the available battery capacity in response to high temperatures.

I have not tried to accurately measure available battery capacity, but based on my observations on gid counts and driving range, I feel that my increase in available battery capacity is real. A 8-10% increase in available battery capacity is very noticable to someone driving the car daily for a year and a half.

I feel that your explanation for what may be going on is very likely. My increase in battery capacity seems to have occured abruptly (not gradual). I am afraid come summer, I will see an abrupt decrease in battery capacity following by the gradual decrease in available battery capacity which I have painfully observed last summer.

 

[edatoakrun]

Im sorry to see this thread cool down with the weather...I have gained back about 5 miles doing the cooler weather...

If LEAFs are actually gaining available battery capacity with cooler temperature (which I have not observed with my LEAF yet) the only explanation I am aware of would be that the LEAF BMS limits the available battery capacity in response to high temperatures.

I have not tried to accurately measure available battery capacity, but based on my observations on gid counts and driving range, I feel that my increase in available battery capacity is real. A 8-10% increase in available battery capacity is very noticeable to someone driving the car daily for a year and a half.

I feel that your explanation for what may be going on is very likely. My increase in battery capacity seems to have occured abruptly (not gradual). I am afraid come summer, I will see an abrupt decrease in battery capacity following by the gradual decrease in available battery capacity which I have painfully observed last summer.

The important point to remember though, if the BMS is limiting available battery capacity in the Summer under high temperatures, that would be a recurring annual seasonal loss and (partial or complete) recovery of available capacity, the percentage of total battery capacity the BMS allows us to access.

It is not the result of battery degradation. So your additional loss of range and capacity next summer (over that you saw last Summer) could only be that due to one year's worth of permanent degradation, which may explain (in part or in all) Nissan's statement of an expected declining rate of capacity loss in future years.

 

[surfingslovak]

Please explain how you came to this conclusion.

Simple, GOM readout, not untypical or unheard of, I'd say.

Many have reported increasing gid counts with the cooler weather, but AFAIK, no one has determined weather this is actually representative of increasing available battery capacity (as can, IMO, only be estimated by a range test or recharge capacity test) or just erroneous reporting of Wh per gid.

Correct, and while at it, let me remind you how you argued against it when I suggested 5-10% recovery in Gids this winter.

If LEAFs are actually gaining available battery capacity with cooler temperature (which I have not observed with my LEAF yet) the only explanation I am aware of would be that the LEAF BMS limits the available battery capacity in response to high temperatures.

Posted by edatoakrun: Sat May 26, 2012 6:22 am

In fact, the only real report of Arizona gid counts over time, that by TickTock (IIRC, please post it-too damn many threads to search!) shows just this pattern, of the battery pack accepting a higher SOC (at least as indicated by higher gid counts) in lower temperature conditions, as plotted seasonally. Others have reported, anecdotally, of higher gid counts when charging at lower (than very high) temperatures.

I posted this graph before you brought this up, and suggested that Gids might have temperature-dependent nature even earlier. There were others as well, and this has been discussed ad nauseaum before. We don't have any evidence of the BMS limiting the charge, via pack voltage or otherwise. That doesn't mean that it does not occur, but it's difficult to make such observations without accurate measurements. I should have seen this coming when I saw you dig through this entire thread the other day. It's a bit late for revisionist history, let's give it a rest please.

 

[TomT]

Interestingly, my battery capacity loss appears to have continued even with the cooler weather... I'm now down about 9 Gids on average from where I was two months ago even though the average temperature is about the same...

Im sorry to see this thread cool down with the weather...I have gained back about 5 miles doing the cooler weather...Im very unhappy with Nissan not contacting me after losing 2 bars or 25 miles...

 

[edatoakrun]

="surfingslovak"]

...

Many have reported increasing gid counts with the cooler weather, but AFAIK, no one has determined weather this is actually representative of increasing available battery capacity (as can, IMO, only be estimated by a range test or recharge capacity test) or just erroneous reporting of Wh per gid.

Correct, and while at it, let me remind you how you argued against it when I suggested 5-10% recovery in Gids this winter.

Instead of mischaracterizing my statements, why don't you quote them?

I assume this is the exchange you refer to?

edatoakrun wrote

...Well, I think we really don't know if the BMS is responsible for none of the decline in gid counts, or for most of it, in the LEAFs with loss of one or two bars, and ~15%-25% capacity So there's no reason I can see to suggest a range of "...5% or as even much as 10%"..., yet.

Any number of explanations may exist for those few LEAFs which now have anomalous much lower gid counts, from manufacturing defects, to exposure to temperatures or other conditions beyond the expected conditions of use, either before or after those LEAFs were delivered...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&p=218521#p218521" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

="surfingslovak"

...We don't have any evidence of the BMS limiting the charge, via pack voltage or otherwise. That doesn't mean that it does not occur, but it's difficult to make such observations without accurate measurements. I should have seen this coming when I saw you dig through this entire thread the other day. It's a bit late for revisionist history, let's give it a rest please.

Well, that is a bit creepy, that you feel the need to monitor my MNL activity. Is that something any MNL member can do, or is it a privileged activity that only only a moderator or administrator can access, and/or abuse?

I'd say it is even more peculiar that you are so fixated in your beliefs, as to discourage any actual data collection that might disturb them.

Why don't you, and others, try to determine whether The Winter increase in gid counts actually represents increased available battery capacity, or is just gid/Wh error?

Do you still have a LEAF, or are you one of those who panicked and sold, based on an erroneous understanding of your own car's "rapid battery degradation"?

 

[TickTock]

I have not seen any evidence that the capacity has any seasonality. *GIDs* yes, capacity no. This is based on the dead to 100% charge measured from the wall (red dots). This seems to be fairly steadily declining. I also am seeing less recovery of my max gids this fall than I saw last year (see blue dots on the right of the graph - upper locus is last year, lower is this year) but that may have something to do with my BMS getting reset in July (maybe this prevented my max gid value from dropping as much as it would have otherwise). The gap is when Nissan had the car immediately following my vacation.

 

[surfingslovak]

Ed, what I do, I do for good reasons, and I'm pretty upfront about it. We are all being monitored on this forum, daily, although it's less intense than it was this summer.


I'm not discouraging collection of data, quite the opposite. I have also changed my position several times on the issue, and have to admit that it's difficult to come to anything conclusive. What I would like to discourage is another round of wild speculation. There is an advisory board now, and with some luck, we will have more authoritative information from them. I do detect some fixation on your part however, as demonstrated in the wake of the Phoenix range test. Now you keep bringing up Gid and and possibly range recovery over and over again. I just wanted to remind you that this is based on the work and data of many others, and it would be disingenuous to present it as your individual POV.

While on the topic, I found the ad hominem attacks on Tony, myself, and others troubling, to say the least. In fact, I must say that in the light of what happened, Nissan has been gracious, perhaps even very gracious, especially when compared with the behavior and harsh comments by some of the EV advocates. That said, I truly have better things to do than to have another endless discussion with you. I honestly thought that some things could change. Apparently not.

I have not seen any evidence that the capacity has any seasonality. *GIDs* yes, capacity no. This is based on the dead to 100% charge measured from the wall (red dots). This seems to be fairly steadily declining.

Thank you, TickTock, that would be in line with the wall energy I measured to recharge my Leaf's battery from turtle to full over time.

 

[Volusiano]

Mark, I agree that Nissan should have made the initial effort to resolve the hot climate battery degradation issue, but I would encourage you to not wait for them to contact you. I think you would be much better off contacting them and telling them what you want. Did you lease or did you purchase? I get the feeling they are more amenable to resolving purchases over leases, but I could be wrong about that.

I thought that if I had a case opened with them and contacted them twice already (once on the first bar loss and twice on the second bar loss), that would be enough. After all, what do they think people take the time to open up a case # for?

But now that I'm hearing that you've had success from your case after your third contact, I will contact them again the third time tomorrow to tell them what I want. I don't have any more to lose by not calling them again anyway. If anything, I'm curious to see if they had conveniently close my case # off already without my agreement or not.

FWIW, I called Nissan today to ask for the status of my 2-bar loss case # and they said nothing is going on. I said, well, then why did some people get buy-back offers from their cases and others (like me) don't? They said they only deal with it on an individual-by-individual basis, but they don't have a "program" for buybacks in general. I said that in that case, I'm officially now making it clear that I'm requesting a buy-back for my case. They said OK, they'll open up a new case # for me since the old case # is so old (Nissan-speak for being closed already?), and someone will get back to me to discuss it further within 7-10 days.

So I would strongly suggest that if somebody wants to pursue a buyback from Nissan to call and let them know clearly in no uncertain term that that's what you want. Otherwise, they'll just assume that you don't want anything done for your case and no action will take place.

 

[edatoakrun]

I have not seen any evidence that the capacity has any seasonality. *GIDs* yes, capacity no. This is based on the dead to 100% charge measured from the wall (red dots). This seems to be fairly steadily declining. I also am seeing less recovery of my max gids this fall than I saw last year (see blue dots on the right of the graph - upper locus is last year, lower is this year) but that may have something to do with my BMS getting reset in July (maybe this prevented my max gid value from dropping as much as it would have otherwise). The gap is when Nissan had the car immediately following my vacation.

Assuming your battery temperature when charging is much lower in the Winter than Summer, and with the continual calendar loss of capacity, would you expect a greater seasonal decline in "100%" charge capacity, than you have seen, TickTock?

Could a larger percentage of available battery capacity actually be offsetting the effects of time and temperature?

I have seen about the same seasonal drop in range that I observed last year, ~10% from ~70 F to ~40 F average battery charging temperature, and from ~80 F to ~50 F in average driving temperatures.

I have seen no evidence of any seasonal change in my available capacity yet, only the range and accepted charge reductions I would expect from my colder battery, and colder driving conditions.

AFAIK, pretty much all the suggestions of variable available battery capacity are being reported from climates hotter than mine, which of course, are also the areas which experienced battery capacity bar loss and large gid count reductions last Summer.

 

[DesertDenizen]

Volusiano, I requested a buy back option and they said the same thing, I will hear back in 7-10 days. That was about four months ago.

 

[DaveEV]

Ed, what I do, I do for good reasons, and I'm pretty upfront about it. We are all bring monitored on this forum, daily, although it's less intense than it was this summer.

I've started a new thread for this topic: Forum tracking

 

[TickTock]

Yeah, I would have expected to see a seasonality in the reverse of what we see on the gids (lower capacity in winter). The gids behavior at first seems like it may be an attempt to compensate for temperature variability, however the fact that the 100% pack volts doesn't change with season (394 V) means no compensation is occurring - pack is being charged to a fixed voltage year round. So the only explanation I can think of for my lack of seasonality is it just doesn't get cold enough in Phoenix for me to see this cold weather effect on capacity.

 

[ALLWATZ]

Volusiano, I requested a buy back option and they said the same thing, I will hear back in 7-10 days. That was about four months ago.

Did either you or Volusiano file a BBB Lemon Law complaint? It doesn't sound like it and if not, you must and when you do there will be time frames that you and Nissan will have to meet (neither you or Nissan will be able to drag it out). Nissan has no official stance on supposed/imaginary Leaf problems, they are all on a delay by delay basis when dealing without BBB arbitration. The BBB will speed up (in reality it just forces their hand) as Nissan will do nothing for you without a cattle prod. Remember, I did not have the media exposure/hype that the AZ people had and yet was able to use it to my advantage as the only person to get a buy-back outside of AZ (I believe at the time) even after being denied arbitration.

 

[DesertDenizen]

Volusiano, I requested a buy back option and they said the same thing, I will hear back in 7-10 days. That was about four months ago.

Did either you or Volusiano file a BBB Lemon Law complaint? It doesn't sound like it and if not, you must and when you do there will be time frames that you and Nissan will have to meet (neither you or Nissan will be able to drag it out).

I have not. I am conflicted, I have only lost one bar, and with my modest amount of driving my Leaf serves me well and I love the car. On the other hand I find Nissan's lack of responsiveness distasteful.