Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[leafkabob]

I am in the middle of a buyback myself and fwiw, my process has been incredibly easy. I can't explain the difference, but all I did was file another complaint (my third) right after the September Phoenix Range test. After that, Nissan "tested" my car and then the Arbitration Dept called me and asked me what I wanted. I said I wanted my money back and they said okie dokie. In fact, they have the check in hand but are kindly letting me hold off a few weeks before I pull the trigger to see if Nissan comes out with an announcement about a battery warranty on the 2013s. I asked for this because I interpreted OrientExpress's post as implying that there may be one.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10687&start=180#p245301

I also wanted to mention that I think everyone will be quite pleased with how Nissan will stand behind battery performance for the coming BEVs in their US portfolio.

If in fact Nissan chooses to warrantee the 2013 battery there should be no reason it would not apply to the 2011, since the battery chemistry is the same.

 

[ALLWATZ]

I am in the middle of a buyback myself and fwiw, my process has been incredibly easy. I can't explain the difference, but all I did was file another complaint (my third) right after the September Phoenix Range test. After that, Nissan "tested" my car and then the Arbitration Dept called me and asked me what I wanted. I said I wanted my money back and they said okie dokie. In fact, they have the check in hand but are kindly letting me hold off a few weeks before I pull the trigger to see if Nissan comes out with an announcement about a battery warranty on the 2013s. I asked for this because I interpreted OrientExpress's post as implying that there may be one.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10687&start=180#p245301

I also wanted to mention that I think everyone will be quite pleased with how Nissan will stand behind battery performance for the coming BEVs in their US portfolio.

If in fact Nissan chooses to warrantee the 2013 battery there should be no reason it would not apply to the 2011, since the battery chemistry is the same.

The fact that they will or might warrantee the battery is a good step but, not worth it if the batteryis just going to degrade over and over in hot climates.

 

[Stoaty]

Hi, Stoaty:

I am still puzzled, however, when I see how your model's curve applies to the ranges achieved in the owners' test. To compare projections, I have overlaid your model's polynomial curve on top of my own graph of those ranges. We can see that your model's purple curve does indeed plot lower and drops faster than Nissan's green curve:

As for the ranges achieved in the test, the 2 red outliers are still notably below your curve; 1 Leaf is barely below it; 2 are on top of it; and... 7 Leafs are above it. It therefore seems to me that, despite what their faulty gauges were predicting, most of the Leafs tested actually achieved better ranges than one might expect in Phoenix using your Battery Aging Model...?

I have no idea why you would apply a "polynomial curve" to my battery aging model, since the model predicts specific outcomes for each vehicle. Perhaps I can refresh your memory by pointing out that of the 12 cars, 7 performed worse than my model predicted, 3 were very close, and in 2 cases the cars performed better than the model predicted. You don't need to do any data manipulation to see that for the Arizona test cars, my model was either accurate, or perhaps a bit too conservative in that it under predicted the loss for the majority of cars:

 

[ALLWATZ]

Congratulations on a positive outcome. It really sucks that people are having to go through this. Nissan seems unwilling to get out in front of this. It makes you wonder what kind of company Nissan really is. With the huge investment they have made they should at least have in place a capacity warranty until they decide that a TMS would have saved them a lot of headaches.

Thanks and I agree about warranty. I don't however, think Nissan is any different than any other large corporation and don't hold any singular grudge (just an overwhelmeing large grudge to all corporations and their noblesse oblige attitudes).

 

[TonyWilliams]

Just had my Leaf bought back by Nissan yesterday. All of the fighting was worth it. They caved even before the BBB came back with a ruling on the appeal of my denial (I do believe that my 40 page appeal with overwhelming evidence that makes it look like Nissan is trying to cover something up

Can I have a copy of your 40 page appeal?

 

[ewodraska]

Just had my Leaf bought back by Nissan yesterday. All of the fighting was worth it. They caved even before the BBB came back with a ruling on the appeal of my denial (I do believe that my 40 page appeal with overwhelming evidence that makes it look like Nissan is trying to cover something up

Can I have a copy of your 40 page appeal?

+1

 

[Herm]

Even better, post it to the wiki.

I do believe Nissan will eventually cave-in and warrant all the cars that hit 70% loss in under 5 years.. I think that is how they did their math when they decided on the active cooling option, backed by their mandatory battery yearly exam of course. In actuality there will be few replacements. Either that or they are morons

 

[vrwl]

Even better, post it to the wiki.

I do believe Nissan will eventually cave-in and warrant all the cars that hit 70% loss in under 5 years.. I think that is how they did their math when they decided on the active cooling option, backed by their mandatory battery yearly exam of course. In actuality there will be few replacements. Either that or they are morons

ROFL! Was that a Freudian slip? "70% loss". Although sadly, we may actually HAVE to hit 70% loss to get anything done.

 

[Volusiano]

I am in the middle of a buyback myself and fwiw, my process has been incredibly easy. I can't explain the difference, but all I did was file another complaint (my third) right after the September Phoenix Range test. After that, Nissan "tested" my car and then the Arbitration Dept called me and asked me what I wanted. I said I wanted my money back and they said okie dokie. In fact, they have the check in hand but are kindly letting me hold off a few weeks before I pull the trigger to see if Nissan comes out with an announcement about a battery warranty on the 2013s.

Did you participate in the September Phoenix Range test, Leafkabob? I notice that you're the first 2-bar loss case who reported getting their refund from Nissan (unless I'm wrong). What was the difference between your third complaint and your second complaint? Did you file anything with the BBB at all? Or was it just the 3 complaints to Nissan?

 

[jspearman]

Congratulations on a positive outcome. It really sucks that people are having to go through this. Nissan seems unwilling to get out in front of this. It makes you wonder what kind of company Nissan really is. With the huge investment they have made they should at least have in place a capacity warranty until they decide that a TMS would have saved them a lot of headaches.

I'm still going through this garbage with Nissan and I'm not happy. I finally filed with the BBB after talking with Leafkabob and finding out they had settled with him. I don't know the formula they are using to decide who to make whole, but it is maddening. I thought they were finally getting their act together, but no. My GOM is down to 72-76 miles with no AC or heat and 100% charge. My only guess is that they want to put us off until the batteries roll out of Smyrna, but I'm tired of guessing.

 

[downeykp]

That is what I meant by "what kind of company Nissan is". It is really disappointing that you have to go thought this. An upstanding company should have shown a lot more love to us launch customers who were stupid enough to think Nissan would take care of us in the event they had rollout issues.
I think they should buy back all cars of people who think the heating system is a failure, battery issues etc. What were we thinking? The promises made were never lived up to. It is a neat car but there are way too many limitations. It will be the last Nissan I ever purchase unless Nissan pulls their head out of their ass.

 

[leafkabob]

I am in the middle of a buyback myself and fwiw, my process has been incredibly easy. I can't explain the difference, but all I did was file another complaint (my third) right after the September Phoenix Range test. After that, Nissan "tested" my car and then the Arbitration Dept called me and asked me what I wanted. I said I wanted my money back and they said okie dokie. In fact, they have the check in hand but are kindly letting me hold off a few weeks before I pull the trigger to see if Nissan comes out with an announcement about a battery warranty on the 2013s.

Did you participate in the September Phoenix Range test, Leafkabob? I notice that you're the first 2-bar loss case who reported getting their refund from Nissan (unless I'm wrong). What was the difference between your third complaint and your second complaint? Did you file anything with the BBB at all? Or was it just the 3 complaints to Nissan?

Yes I participated in the Range Test. I'm not the first two bar loser to get a buyback though. John Noble and Spooka, who both also participated in the Range Test, have had their cars bought back. Maybe participating in the RT was the key.

I found out when I made my third complaint that the first two had been closed out. There was no difference between the third and the other two. I never filed anything with the BBB, as I never thought that was the way to go. The car is not a lemon.

 

[cwerdna]

Just had my Leaf bought back by Nissan yesterday.
...
I believe that I am the first outside of that state. Oddly enough, I was told by 3 different Nissan dealership people, that they had to convince the people in Nashville (corporate) that Palm Springs was a hot climate area. Really! First, are they that dumb and cannot even pull up a site like weather.com (Palm Spring 128 days above 100 degrees, Phoenix only 117) and second, if a hot climate isn't a degrading factor for the battery, why are they asking? Also, the dealer did confide that 3 more vehicles have come into the shop (at just this dealership) recently to be "tested" for the same capacity loss issues. Have to say thanks to all of the people who had to go through the same ordeal before me and all of their insight helped immensly (especially AZDRE for starting this thread!). I still believe that the Leaf is a wonderful product for that will perform perfectly for 75% of the geographical country.

Congrats to you and the other more recent folks who got their Leafs bought back due to heat- related premature capacity loss!

For anyone's who's lived in California for awhile, they should know Palm Springs is hot. I wouldn't expect folks in TN to know... but yeah, they could've pulled up weather info pretty easily.

I'm glad to hear thru all this effort (going to the media, Tony's range test, etc.) finally have some resolution.

Until Nissan adds a TMS or has a reasonably capacity warranty, they must stop selling these cars in hot climate areas. If they want to make them available there, make them lease only.

 

[Volusiano]

I am in the middle of a buyback myself and fwiw, my process has been incredibly easy. I can't explain the difference, but all I did was file another complaint (my third) right after the September Phoenix Range test. After that, Nissan "tested" my car and then the Arbitration Dept called me and asked me what I wanted. I said I wanted my money back and they said okie dokie. In fact, they have the check in hand but are kindly letting me hold off a few weeks before I pull the trigger to see if Nissan comes out with an announcement about a battery warranty on the 2013s.

Did you participate in the September Phoenix Range test, Leafkabob? I notice that you're the first 2-bar loss case who reported getting their refund from Nissan (unless I'm wrong). What was the difference between your third complaint and your second complaint? Did you file anything with the BBB at all? Or was it just the 3 complaints to Nissan?

Yes I participated in the Range Test. I'm not the first two bar loser to get a buyback though. John Noble and Spooka, who both also participated in the Range Test, have had their cars bought back. Maybe participating in the RT was the key.

I found out when I made my third complaint that the first two had been closed out. There was no difference between the third and the other two. I never filed anything with the BBB, as I never thought that was the way to go. The car is not a lemon.

I didn't realize that they would go ahead and close out complaints filed by owners without arriving at any resolution and without asking or even notifying the owners that they'd be closing those cases out. That's pretty sneaky of them in my opinion to shove it all under the rug like that.

I also notice that some people mention they were given different case numbers between their calls about 1st bar loss and 2nd bar loss. When I called for the 2nd bar loss, I gave them the case # for the first bar loss and they said they will update my case # with my 2nd bar loss report. So I only have 1 case # for both calls.

Of the 40 2-bar losers registered on MyNissanLEAF wiki, it looks like only a few (3 so far?) got a buy-back offer. Wonder why Nissan didn't contact the other 37 and offer them at least some kind of a test to begin the process of a buy-back possibility? At least for those of the 37 who had a case opened up with Nissan.

Based on Leafkabob's reported experienced, at least the process is clear now (if not before) that you'd only need to open up a case with Nissan (no BBB complaint is even needed), and you're supposed to hear back from Nissan with some battery test and then begin the arbitration process.

So I still don't understand why or how they could have selected to take care of only 3 out of 40 customers who have 2 bar loss issue... By now, if nobody else has been contacted, I assume that the remaining 37 have decidedly been totally abandoned by Nissan and are left to fend for themselves.

So much for Nissan's big talk about having their customers' back.

 

[jspearman]

When they started the buybacks I thought, "Finally, maybe I can wait and they'll fix the problem." They started the advisory board thing, and again I thought there was finally some progress. But it just seems like they are paying off the people who made noise or were part of Tony's range test. It really makes me mad and suggests that they are not at all serious about making things right, but simply want to keep things quiet. And they are still selling the car here in Phoenix, despite there being no fix for the problem. It's just baffling.

 

[jspearman]

I just want to add an anecdote on how to handle a problem with your product.

I bought a Jawbone UP band on the day they came out. The device was just terrible. It wouldn't sync, it wasn't rugged enough for everyday use, etc. They pulled the product off the market within weeks and offered a no-questions asked refund to all the buyers. What do you think my opinion of Jawbone is?

Not only that, they redesigned the bands and sent me a new band for free. They didn't have to do that, and I probably would have bought the new one anyway, since I loved the idea already and the implementation is cleaner than the other brands. I will absolutely buy a Jawbone product. Their speakers are phenomenal for their size.

I don't expect Nissan to give me a redesigned Leaf for free, but I do expect them to stand behind their product and I think they have failed miserably on every single front. The best they could do was to "look into" installing a charging station at my wife's work, so we could double the number of charges and wear down the battery even faster. Brilliant! It looks like I'll have to create a website, or fly a banner from my car, or start a sit in at my local dealer, or something.

It simply shouldn't be this way. Whoever has been handling this at Nissan HQ should be fired immediately.

 

[TomT]

+1!

I firmly believe that, with the Leaf, I have owned both my first and last Nissan...

That is what I meant by "what kind of company Nissan is". It is really disappointing that you have to go thought this. An upstanding company should have shown a lot more love to us launch customers who were stupid enough to think Nissan would take care of us I the event they had rollout issues.

 

[mark1313]

Im sorry to see this thread cool down with the weather...I have gained back about 5 miles doing the cooler weather...Im very unhappy with Nissan not contacting me after losing 2 bars or 25 miles...I feel very deceived by Nissans miscalculations in what heat does to the batteries in hotter cities...
I would expect that by the end of next summer I may be angry enough just to leave it @ Nissans dealership and let them do what ever the crap they want to with the car.....

 

[cwerdna]

When they started the buybacks I thought, "Finally, maybe I can wait and they'll fix the problem." They started the advisory board thing, and again I thought there was finally some progress. But it just seems like they are paying off the people who made noise or were part of Tony's range test. It really makes me mad and suggests that they are not at all serious about making things right, but simply want to keep things quiet. And they are still selling the car here in Phoenix, despite there being no fix for the problem. It's just baffling.

The advisory group is a good first step and I don't know about the paying people off part...

But, I do think there needs to be a list maintained somewhere of action items/homework for Nissan (as I suggested at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=246721#p246721" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=243197#p243197" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. The maintained action item list should have priorities, milestones (if applicable) and reasonable deadlines associated w/each of them.

Part of the action needed I think is for Nissan to do something in the more immediate term for hot climate folks and areas, preferably not on this case by case basis thing, unless all of them result in a buyback.

The advisory group (forming, meeting, etc.) doesn't need to be the blocking/gating factor when there are more pressing issues to be taken care of. I think hot climate folks w/premature battery capacity loss already know what they'd like to see happen. Right now, it almost seems like the advisory group is a stall tactic, as people predicted.

 

[kubel]

I firmly believe that, with the Leaf, I have owned both my first and last Nissan...

Same here, and I'm in a northern state. Temporary range reduction was anticipated, but I don't like supporting a company that has demonstrated it doesn't stand behind its cars.

I proposed a simple solution to Nissan: Offer a battery warranty (it can even be an optional warranty) that covers battery degradation.