Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

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mwalsh said:
Boomer23 said:
smkettner said:
Has anyone ever regained a bar due to lower temps or other changes?

No, but I've regained Gids (see my sig below) and perhaps a couple miles of range (no actual range test, but trip range seems to have gone up about 2 miles).

Mine have improved too - mid 250s for three mornings in a row this week so far. Best numbers since mid-July. Very happy to see that happen. :D May have been helped by running down further into the pack than I normally do - Monday I really hammered it on the drives to and from work, getting home with just 10.6%/50 Gids remaining.

My 100% charge gid count has also significantly improved. I was getting as low as 205 gids after I lost the second bar, but now in much cooler temperatures I am seeing as high as 225. Not sure what is going on, but the transistion seemed very abrupt.
 
You may recall, I've contacted Nissan about losing a bar and noticing what I think might be above-normal battery capacity loss. Well, the tech spent the better part of a day with my LEAF. The 1-877-no-gas-ev person just sent me a pdf file of the tech's report. It doesn't show much more than I get in an annual battery check (including the 5-star page). But it did have two items of note:

1. A Consult-III plus page shows
HV Battery Maximum Cell Voltage 4011 mV
HV Battery Minimum Cell Voltage 3994 mV
HV Battery Total Cell Voltage 384.46 V

2. The tech took a picture of the adapters I use with my EVSE Upgrade, which I keep in the hatchback area and included that picture in the report.

What do the cell voltage numbers mean?

Thanks in advance for your comments. :)
 
A difference of 17 mV means nothing when the car is no where near LBW or lower.

At 384.46V the car was around 70% full and a minimal cell voltage difference only indicates that the BMS is able to keep the cells fairly well balanced.

The tech ran the test wrong. It needs to be run at low SOC and if it was being done to look for weak cells, I'd want it run at VLBW or lower, personally.

Check out this voltage/GID log that TickTock has: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=141670#p141670" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



I would want the pack voltage below 360V (or even better, 350V) to find weak cells. IIRC the service manual says that the test should be run with 2 SOC bars or less (not sure if these are old or new SOC bars), which would be around 365-372V or so.

Edit: See TickTock's post below for test procedure as outlined in the service manual
 
The service manual (EVB-65) states the minimum cell voltage must be less then 3712mV before taking the CVLI measurements (says to discharge the battery until this condition is met before proceeding). Clearly 3994mV is nowhere near this.
 
TickTock said:
The service manual (EVB-65) states the minimum cell voltage must be less then 3712mV before taking the CVLI measurements (says to discharge the battery until this condition is met before proceeding). Clearly 3994mV is nowhere near this.
Once again - you are awesome. :)

3712 mV is a pack voltage of 356.35V - that is very close to VLBW or lower looking at TickTock's chart above.
 
drees said:
A difference of 17 mV means nothing when the car is no where near LBW or lower.

At 384.46V the car was around 70% full and a minimal cell voltage difference only indicates that the BMS is able to keep the cells fairly well balanced.

The tech ran the test wrong. It needs to be run at low SOC and if it was being done to look for weak cells, I'd want it run at VLBW or lower, personally.

~snip

I would want the pack voltage below 360V (or even better, 350V) to find weak cells. IIRC the service manual says that the test should be run with 2 SOC bars or less (not sure if these are old or new SOC bars), which would be around 365-372V or so.

Your comment that the car was around 70% full makes sense to me. I charged to 80% the night before and then drove it to the dealer. After the car had been at the dealer for an hour or so, the tech told me he had to charge it to 100% to complete the test. I assumed that he charged it to 100%, then did the annual battery test, resulting in the 5- star page. Maybe he did the voltage difference test when it first came in (at about 70%).

So, the test results are meaningless. Except that Nissan now believes the car is perfectly okay and they have these test results to "prove" it. Well, the car works okay for my current needs. I'm mostly concerned about next summer.
 
Randy3 said:
You may recall, I've contacted Nissan about losing a bar and noticing what I think might be above-normal battery capacity loss. Well, the tech spent the better part of a day with my LEAF. The 1-877-no-gas-ev person just sent me a pdf file of the tech's report. It doesn't show much more than I get in an annual battery check (including the 5-star page). But it did have two items of note:

1. A Consult-III plus page shows
HV Battery Maximum Cell Voltage 4011 mV
HV Battery Minimum Cell Voltage 3994 mV
HV Battery Total Cell Voltage 384.46 V
Randy, for what it's worth, I had the same test done on my leaf back in October. When I posted my cell voltage numbers, I got a few explanations from Drees, Ticktock and Vegastar about why the tech didn't do the test properly. You can find them here, or somewhere nearby: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&start=4620#p237423
 
mwalsh said:
Mine have improved too - mid 250s for three mornings in a row this week so far. Best numbers since mid-July. Very happy to see that happen. :D May have been helped by running down further into the pack than I normally do - Monday I really hammered it on the drives to and from work, getting home with just 10.6%/50 Gids remaining.
I have switched to charging 100% with the cooler weather and while completely unscientific my GOM has been peaking lately.... especially after a deep discharge(1 or 0 bars) to 100%. :)
 
This may help illustrate the need to run the test at low charge. DISCLAIMER: the cellpair data I show in the graph is from canbus analysis and reverse-engineering of the data streams. I have no confirmation that these values represent what I think they do (however I am reasonably sure since they track pack volts/96 so well). OK so assuming these are what I think they are, I plotted below the gids, pack_volts/96, "strong" cellpair, "weak" cellpair, and "average" cellpair measured during a turtle to 100% charge. As you can see, once I get above VLBW, my weakest cellpair actually tracks the average very closely. The two voltages only diverge at very low charge levels. In fact, for my pack, if you measure the lowest CP voltage when at higher charge levels, you will actually be measuring what I think is my *strongest* cellpair.

leafkabob said:
Randy3 said:
You may recall, I've contacted Nissan about losing a bar and noticing what I think might be above-normal battery capacity loss. Well, the tech spent the better part of a day with my LEAF. The 1-877-no-gas-ev person just sent me a pdf file of the tech's report. It doesn't show much more than I get in an annual battery check (including the 5-star page). But it did have two items of note:

1. A Consult-III plus page shows
HV Battery Maximum Cell Voltage 4011 mV
HV Battery Minimum Cell Voltage 3994 mV
HV Battery Total Cell Voltage 384.46 V
Randy, for what it's worth, I had the same test done on my leaf back in October. When I posted my cell voltage numbers, I got a few explanations from Drees, Ticktock and Vegastar about why the tech didn't do the test properly. You can find them here, or somewhere nearby: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&start=4620#p237423
 

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+1 Awesome!

In a pack well (top) balanced shouldn't the strong pair have the same voltage as the other cells at 100% charge?
 
Thanks for all the encouragement! I had a lot of help. I used a modified version of code turbo2liter was kind enough to share to query for the cell pair data and, of course, I heavily leveraged Gary Gidding's hardware and software for the logging and decoding. Not to mention all the feedback analysis from countless other members of this forum. So it really is a team effort.
 
vegastar said:
+1 Awesome!

In a pack well (top) balanced shouldn't the strong pair have the same voltage as the other cells at 100% charge?
I think they must just pull the cells with the highest voltages down to the *average* so cells with lower voltages don't get adjusted. I think this is actually ideal since those cells are not charged any higher than they need to be.
 
I agree that it is better to not charge to 100% the cells that don't need it because other weaker cells are limiting the pack capacity. But that is bottom balance. Maybe the algorithm is more conplicated than simple top or bottom balance.

Pulling the higher voltage cells down will lower the average until it matches the lowest voltage cell or the difference is below a preset value.
 
smkettner said:
Has anyone ever regained a bar due to lower temps or other changes?

:lol: Still waiting to regain mine per what the dealership told me, I consider 75 to be cooled down. My BMS data was reset again a little over a month ago when it was at the dealer last for the brake software update, I only charged to 80% the entire time I had my 12th bar back and three weeks in the bar went away again. This is the 2nd time I've had my BMS data reset and had the bar re-disappear.
 
RickS said:
My BMS data was reset again a little over a month ago when it was at the dealer last for the brake software update, I only charged to 80% the entire time I had my 12th bar back and three weeks in the bar went away again. This is the 2nd time I've had my BMS data reset and had the bar re-disappear.
Just enough time to sell the car :)
Save that brake software update until you need it.
 
Don't think I haven't thought that. I'm relatively confident that the dealer is not supposed to be resetting the BMS data though, but perhaps if you ask nicely they will comply. As far as I can tell it's the procedure used when a module is replaced.
 
Yanquetino said:
Hi, Stoaty:

I applied the data from your table for Phoenix to plot its corresponding polynomial curve for battery loss over time. Compared to my own graph that uses Nissan's generic 5- and 10-year benchmarks, It differs significantly, as you can see:

graph_06.jpg


If your model is correct, the 80% and 70% capacity losses certainly do occur much earlier, because your proposed 1.81 aging factor for Phoenix drops the curve much lower and at a faster rate. Indeed, the model projects a 70% capacity several months before Nissan anticipates even 80%.

I am still puzzled, however, when I see how your model's curve applies to the ranges achieved in the owners' test. To compare projections, I have overlaid your model's polynomial curve on top of my own graph of those ranges. We can see that your model's purple curve does indeed plot lower and drops faster than Nissan's green curve:

graph_07.jpg


As for the ranges achieved in the test, the 2 red outliers are still notably below your curve; 1 Leaf is barely below it; 2 are on top of it; and... 7 Leafs are above it. It therefore seems to me that, despite what their faulty gauges were predicting, most of the Leafs tested actually achieved better ranges than one might expect in Phoenix using your Battery Aging Model...?

As you can see, these are the same 7 Leafs, curiously enough, that fell within their corresponding error bars of Nissan's projected ranges in my analysis.

Just eye-balling your overlay, it looks like if you moved the "error bars" to Stoaty's projected line you plotted, "curiously enough," all the data points would pretty much fit within Stoaty's projections except one outlier as opposed to two outliers to the projected ranges in your analysis. And that isn't taking into the additional data that Stoaty said should be used to meet the the requirements from his model. Interesting that you didn't apply the same plotting standards to his model that you used in your own analysis. Perhaps you'd redo the second chart above showing the error bars centered on Stoaty's projected line so we can all better see the difference it makes.
 
Just had my Leaf bought back by Nissan yesterday. All of the fighting was worth it. They caved even before the BBB came back with a ruling on the appeal of my denial (I do believe that my 40 page appeal with overwhelming evidence that makes it look like Nissan is trying to cover something up, made Nissan settle so soon). Same Lemon Law "guidelines" as in AZ, remember that this is another "customer satisfaction" buy back. I believe that I am the first outside of that state. Oddly enough, I was told by 3 different Nissan dealership people, that they had to convince the people in Nashville (corporate) that Palm Springs was a hot climate area. Really! First, are they that dumb and cannot even pull up a site like weather.com (Palm Spring 128 days above 100 degrees, Phoenix only 117) and second, if a hot climate isn't a degrading factor for the battery, why are they asking? Also, the dealer did confide that 3 more vehicles have come into the shop (at just this dealership) recently to be "tested" for the same capacity loss issues. Have to say thanks to all of the people who had to go through the same ordeal before me and all of their insight helped immensly (especially AZDRE for starting this thread!). I still believe that the Leaf is a wonderful product for that will perform perfectly for 75% of the geographical country.
 
Congratulations on a positive outcome. It really sucks that people are having to go through this. Nissan seems unwilling to get out in front of this. It makes you wonder what kind of company Nissan really is. With the huge investment they have made they should at least have in place a capacity warranty until they decide that a TMS would have saved them a lot of headaches.
 
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