Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[TonyWilliams]

A LEAF tech came down to Fresno from Livermore, CA to spend the day with my car...
One thing of interest -- he says I've been charging the car incorrectly. He recommends charging to 100%, driving the car so it goes down below 50% charge (or more), then recharging back to 100%. I've been charging to 80%, pretty much every time I plug it in. I asked about the car sitting at 100% charged for 5-8 hours since I end the charge at 7am (due to PG&E time of use rates) but don't drive it until 2pm or so. He says this won't be a problem. After nearly two years of ownership, I'll have to retrain myself for this.

Just nutty. If 8 hours every day in the Fresno summer heat at 100% is ok, why not continuously at 100% ?

It's bad advice. Like much of Nissan's data, it doesn't add up. If the factory is telling their field reps that 100% is ok, get it out of the sales contract about how bad it is. Put in a capacity warranty.

Let me put it simply; is Nissan going to pay for your degraded battery? You need to do what's smart for the battery, and his advice isn't it.

 

[derkraut]

A LEAF tech came down to Fresno from Livermore, CA to spend the day with my car...
One thing of interest -- he says I've been charging the car incorrectly. He recommends charging to 100%, driving the car so it goes down below 50% charge (or more), then recharging back to 100%. I've been charging to 80%, pretty much every time I plug it in. I asked about the car sitting at 100% charged for 5-8 hours since I end the charge at 7am (due to PG&E time of use rates) but don't drive it until 2pm or so. He says this won't be a problem. After nearly two years of ownership, I'll have to retrain myself for this.

Just nutty. If 8 hours every day in the Fresno summer heat at 100% is ok, why not continuously at 100% ?

It's bad advice. Like much of Nissan's data, it doesn't add up. If the factory is telling their field reps that 100% is ok, get it out of the sales contract about how bad it is. Put in a capacity warranty.

Let me put it simply; is Nissan going to pay for your degraded battery? You need to do what's smart for the battery, and his advice isn't it.

+1 I wonder what kind of training some of these Leaf techs are receiving, to be giving out these kinds of recommendations? :? :? :? :? :?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

A LEAF tech came down to Fresno from Livermore, CA to spend the day with my car. This was in response to my submitting a ticket for losing a capacity bar and seeing a decrease in range.

He asked about our charging and driving habits, then updated the car's computer with the grabby brake fix (a different issue, now fixed). Then he charged the car to 100% and did a battery check, taking the results with him. While he wouldn't give me any numbers, he did say the car is doing fine as far as he can tell. I can expect the 1-877-no-gas-ev folks to call me in a week or so with more information.

One thing of interest -- he says I've been charging the car incorrectly.

did he say why this was better?

 

[ALLWATZ]

Finishing up my second appeal letter to BBB for my appealable denial due to "non jurisdiction" just so I can get to arbitration and the more I write, the madder :evil: I get. The bunk that Nissan is spewing in letters to the BBB is amazing, citing things like the "battery capacity loss is analogous to a complaint about gas mileage". REALLY! Someone needs to take them into arbitration and win, instead of settling using the Lemon Law as a "guideline", to get it on public record as this being a legit issue. I'm not knocking anyone who took the previous deals (heaven knows I don't have the "huevos" or money being a pensioned off retiree and would do the same) but until then, Nissan can just show the consumer how gracious they are with these "goodwill and customer satisfaction" gestures. However, if they push, I will fight back.

 

[DaveEV]

One thing of interest -- he says I've been charging the car incorrectly. He recommends charging to 100%, driving the car so it goes down below 50% charge (or more), then recharging back to 100%. I've been charging to 80%, pretty much every time I plug it in. I asked about the car sitting at 100% charged for 5-8 hours since I end the charge at 7am (due to PG&E time of use rates) but don't drive it until 2pm or so. He says this won't be a problem. After nearly two years of ownership, I'll have to retrain myself for this.

As Tony and others have said - this goes against all known best practices for extending the life of lithium batteries.
Now - if you know all you driving you normally do are 5-10 mile trips spread out over multiple days - then yeah - don't bother recharging back to 80% until you get below 50%. But to charge to 100%? Does not compute.

 

[Pipcecil]

I wish I had the luxury I used to to charge to 80%, unfortunately with my degredation fairly bad, I have had to resort to 100% charge all the time

In fact, especially on the weekends I even have to top off (I know bad) if I am down just a little bit since I need the fuel tank to get where I need to and back. I am sure Nissan will site that my poor care resulted in loss, but its only be recent, the loss has caused me to use these extreme measures to use the car like I did when it was new.

 

[KJD]

One thing of interest -- he says I've been charging the car incorrectly. He recommends charging to 100%, driving the car so it goes down below 50% charge (or more), then recharging back to 100%. I've been charging to 80%, pretty much every time I plug it in. I asked about the car sitting at 100% charged for 5-8 hours since I end the charge at 7am (due to PG&E time of use rates) but don't drive it until 2pm or so. He says this won't be a problem. After nearly two years of ownership, I'll have to retrain myself for this.

This is absolute total BS. Where do they dig these guys up from. Everything he told you is WRONG.

 

[DaveEV]

IIn fact, especially on the weekends I even have to top off (I know bad) if I am down just a little bit since I need the fuel tank to get where I need to and back.

I don't think anyone will argue that if you need to top-off to ensure you make your trip that you are doing anything wrong or bad. Just top off as close as possible to departure time to keep average SOC as low as possible.

 

[Volusiano]

One thing of interest -- he says I've been charging the car incorrectly. He recommends charging to 100%, driving the car so it goes down below 50% charge (or more), then recharging back to 100%. I've been charging to 80%, pretty much every time I plug it in. I asked about the car sitting at 100% charged for 5-8 hours since I end the charge at 7am (due to PG&E time of use rates) but don't drive it until 2pm or so. He says this won't be a problem. After nearly two years of ownership, I'll have to retrain myself for this.

This is absolute total BS. Where do they dig these guys up from. Everything he told you is WRONG.

Maybe Nissan is retraining their technicians to tell customers to charge to 100% especially BECAUSE of the battery degradation issue, as Nissan has decided that this is going to be their long term remedy to the issue going forward -> NOT ENOUGH RANGE? CHARGE TO 100%!!!! PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!!

 

[OrientExpress]

This is an interesting discussion as we have been charging our LEAF to 100% since new every day for almost 2 years, and we still get the same range as when it was new. Heck I can still wring out 100 miles on a charge if I really try.

 

[mwalsh]

This is an interesting discussion as we have been charging our LEAF to 100% since new every day for almost 2 years, and we still get the same range as when it was new. Heck I can still wring out 100 miles on a charge if I really try.

Looking at the average temps in San Jose, the mileage on your car, and the amount of time you've had it, I suspect you're looking at an 8-10% loss. Either your normal driving patterns haven't revealed it yet; you haven't quite dropped off the ledge some of us noticed in Spring (because you were a few months behind us on delivery); you're in denial; or you really do have a reason to promote this car in it's best light. There is no way you haven't had degradation.

 

[OrientExpress]

But if the car still drives exactly like it did when it was new 2 years ago, why should I care about a hypothetical loss? Why worry about it? Everything wears out over time, and the way my LEAF is wearing is perfectly acceptable and probably better than a conventional automobile.

 

[mwalsh]

But if the car still drives exactly like it did when it was new 2 years ago, why should I care about a hypothetical loss? Why worry about it? Everything wears out over time, and the way my LEAF is wearing is perfectly acceptable and probably better than a conventional automobile.

Well, some of us really want to chart how long it will take before this degradation become a problem. If you don't have to, or don't want to...more power to you. But it is also disingenuous to tell those (both current owners and future owners) who do care about range loss that there is none, simply because you consider it "hypothetical"

 

[Stoaty]

But if the car still drives exactly like it did when it was new 2 years ago, why should I care about a hypothetical loss? Why worry about it? Everything wears out over time, and the way my LEAF is wearing is perfectly acceptable and probably better than a conventional automobile.

You don't have to care about it, especially because you live in a very favorable climate. However, the loss is definitely not "hypothetical". Lithium Ion Battery 101 tells you there is a loss, the question is how much and whether that loss impacts a particular drivers use of the Leaf. Just because you are satisfied with the way your Leaf battery pack is aging (as am I) doesn't mean that it isn't a significant problem for some people.

 

[surfingslovak]

Another thing to keep in mind is that while some people are leasing, many others are not. Different ownership models could have implications, which are not just a matter of perception. Yes, owning of a depreciating asset is a concept most of us should be familiar with. It's a fact of life, just like you said. However, if you combine that with radically new technology, unknown replacement value, and in many cases, a stretched budget to acquire it, you could get a vastly different ownership experience.

To be clear, many believe that there is a qualitative difference between an owner in a hot climate, such as Phoenix, and a lessee in cooler climate, such as San Francisco or Seattle. Aside from these considerations, some of the most vocal owners could not make their commute anymore, whereas this was possible before. Yes, perhaps they did not factor in battery degradation, but can we really fault them? Perhaps they had no way of knowing how much of it, and how soon to expect it. If we wanted to get back to the topic of this thread, your 100-mile club submission has more than enough data for the informed to answer any questions they might have.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

my LEAF has lived 2 lives. for the first 14 months, it drove relatively short commutes. i had 12 mile RT commute. i manually charged it to 60-80% every other day or so and charged to 100% for Centrailia commute of 64 miles RT about once every 10 days. Then I decided to test job market. Commute went to 50 miles 5 days a week for a few months, then 25 miles for a few months. during the last 4-5 months or so, have been doing the Centrailia commute more often as it was saving a lot in fuel (we had two different "gas crisis" in our area making the average price of gas the highest ever)

I now fully charge on average 3-4 times a week. quick charge 3-5 times a week and so on. as far as range loss? i know i have some. batteries simply start losing range from day one. now, the initial loss seems to be pretty slow if living in a decent climate but I have no doubt i have lost at least 5% despite getting 280 GID counts on a regular basis.

so have to say;

quick charging as long as you dont exceed 6 TBs; do it as much as you want...wont hurt a thing.

charge to 100%; do it as much as you want but try to go somewhere within 8 hours or so (have left it sitting over 12 hours several times including once for 36 hours (had flu and rolling over on couch was all i could do...)

its really too bad that Nissan is providing any options other than buying back cars. hopefully this focus group will get some or at least "encourage" them to be more upfront about our issues.

 

[JeremyW]

But if the car still drives exactly like it did when it was new 2 years ago, why should I care about a hypothetical loss? Why worry about it? Everything wears out over time, and the way my LEAF is wearing is perfectly acceptable and probably better than a conventional automobile.

The leaf does wear differently than a conventional automobile. The initial wear is unnoticed. At some point, the user notices that they can't go as far. Of course, they charge more. Maybe by that time, there are more quick chargers, workplace charging, and more opportunity charging at convenient L2. Maybe their lease is nearing end, and the new '14 '15 or '16 model is out.

But for some, the wear was fast. The time to replace this wear item came early. There is currently no way to purchase a replacement for this wear item. The only option Nissan has offered has been to buy back the car.

 

[turbo2ltr]

Up until I lost my first bar, I charged to 100% every day, and many days I barely got down to 80%, and it sat at 100% for 7+ hours every night, yet, when you compare my loss to others, I don't feel I am any worse off than people that never charged to 100%.

 

[DaveEV]

If we wanted to get back to the topic of this thread, your 100-mile club submission has more than enough data for the informed to answer any questions they might have.

Looks like around 10% capacity loss to me.

6.4 mi/kWh * 21 kWh = 134.4 mi on a new LEAF.

OE got to 102.1 mi somewhere between LBW and VLBW. For the sake of the argument, let's assume LBW since that improves the number. At LBW a LEAF still has 17% capacity remaining, so he could have driven 17% further or 120 mi before turtle. That is about 10% short of 134 miles.

 

[planet4ever]

One thing of interest -- he says I've been charging the car incorrectly. He recommends charging to 100%, driving the car so it goes down below 50% charge (or more), then recharging back to 100%. I've been charging to 80%, pretty much every time I plug it in.

This is absolute total BS. Where do they dig these guys up from. Everything he told you is WRONG.

I wouldn't say that everything is wrong. Yes, you shouldn't charge to 100% all the time if you don't need the range. On the other hand, you shouldn't charge every night whether you need to or not. I think he is right that if you are only driving a few miles per day you should wait until the charge drops below 50% before plugging in. (And 50% is 5 bars, not 6 bars.)

Obviously that wouldn't apply if you thought you might be driving quite a bit the next day. Admittedly "quite a bit" and "a few miles" are fuzzy terms, but they are terms you need to define for yourself based on your route, temperature, and driving style. I average about 4 miles/kWh on the dash gauge, 20 miles per day, and have no regular pattern of driving. I generally charge to 100% if I think I might be traveling more than 50 miles the next day, 80% if I might be going as much as 40 miles, otherwise 80% only if the charge gauge is at 5 bars or less.

Ray