Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

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DaveinOlyWA said:
as far as the overriding issue of this thread, i am not disputing that. i would be concerned to from lack of information on long term degradation (since what we have does not apply to Phoenix) and when the day will come when the commute will be too far since you cannot wait until that day comes before you start making noise due to the fact that there is a significant amount of time involved.

now, the publicity generated by the "one percent" has done a great job of shortening that time line but also has had the unintended consequence of creating mob mentality where others are jumping on this bandwagon when their issue is relatively mild. so now we have this impression (or you do) that 30% are unhappy.
I think the 30% refers to owners in Arizona. As far as the percent that will be affected, that is pretty easy to tell with the right data. Just take the number of cars sold in areas with a battery aging factor greater than 1.3, and divide it by the total number of cars sold by Nissan. That will give a good approximation of those who are likely to ultimately be unhappy with their battery longevity. Of course, we don't have the numbers in states other than Arizona, but you have to include Texas, and most prominently, Florida. The only way Florida will escape the same fate is if the extreme temperatures in places like Arizona cause problems out or proportion to the battery aging factor. My estimate of problems in California is about 1%, compared to over 11% in Arizona (and eventually all of Arizona).
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
i would have to say that Most LEAFers will have a happy experience.

I will agree with that up front, but there are large numbers that will not have a happy experience, as what they were sold isn't exactly what they bought. :cry:

First, the people in hot places. Arizona, some of California, some of Texas, etc. Unless they knew up front that battery life to 70% is likely to be more like 40,000 miles or about 3-4 summers. The second tier of warm places will also be somewhat unhappy. While many of these people can still be very happy with their car even with capacity well less than 70%, Nissan will take a lot of anger from these people, especially as Nissan has not either a warranty program for such capacity loss, or a discounted battery exchange program. Or even for that matter even a public price for the battery pack.

Second, the people that rely daily on a large fraction of the battery. The battery will lose capacity with time, even in the best of places, and the range will decrease. Eventually this will cause a daily problem as the battery loses the capacity needed to take the daily routine. These people would also gain a lot from a discounted battery exchange, and the battery they turn in might be very valuable for people in hot places. They would gain less from a warranty, as they might not be down the full 70% or whatever percentage would be needed under a warranty. Nissan could have avoided this by trying to filter out potential customers that would be driving more than 40 miles per day without a charge at the destination, or more than 80 miles per day with a full charge at the destination.

I'm in a cool climate, and I commute about 30 miles, and I could charge close enough to work to mostly avoid a low battery warnings with half capacity. I am in none of the above categories. This doesn't affect me directly.

Nissan needs to work out how they are going to handle this issues, and start getting the word out well before next summer. The very worst cases are well handled by a car buyback or lease termination, and I'm pleased to hear that there have been such deals for those impacted the worst. The next group of cases are in my never humble and only personal opinion, would be best handled by a battery exchange. Under such a deal, Nissan would exchange a new, full capacity battery pack for a used one for a discounted price, and also would exchange, accurately measured capacity used battery packs with significant remaining capacity for used ones at a prices that would depend on both supply and demand for such used packs and for the measured capacity. Lastly, cells from packs with too little capacity for automotive use could be sold for things like backup power. The first exchange would be a cost to Nissan, but would improve the user experience for those most impacted. The second exchange would be income to Nissan, and would also improve the user experience. The last sale would also be income. The net gain to Nissan would be that there would not be large numbers of Leaf owners in hot places loudly unhappy, and at a lower cost than a large buyback program, or a warranty program (public or secret).

In numbers, assume Nissan's cost is $12,000. That would imply that a new pack installed without an exchange would be somewhere around $18,000. Assume that a 50% pack is not of use, and the cells can be sold for other uses like backup power for $4000. The distribution of capacity in returned packs is something that will likely be known only after doing this for a while. Assume half of the returned packs are at 50%, and half are at 75%, and assume that a 75% pack can be exchanged for a 50% pack for $2000 to Nissan. Then the break even price for a new for used exchange would be about $7,000, plus the costs of running the program.

If Nissan would make the exchange new for used price $5,000 I'd expect that would be far cheaper to Nissan than any other way of dealing with the unhappy drivers. Somewhat less than break even today, but as cell prices drop with time, would eventually be a profit.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
you do realize that my comment was solely based on the fact that many here have decided to pigeonhole on the "99%" statement to shoot this guy's statement down??
Truly the level of dissatisfaction of LEAF owners is the key factor which will determine how this plays out. Nissan took a big gamble by implementing a design which would have very regional characteristics AND not communicating strengths and weaknesses by region, but rather they sold it based solely upon it's predicted average worldwide performance. If the dissatisfaction rate remains below 1% for the next couple of years, then I would say all is well. If it ever gets beyond about 5% or so worldwide, Nissan will have a massive problem on their hands.

I think the differences of opinion about this topic key around our perceptions of how this will play out going forward.
 
leiko49 said:
TonyWilliams said:
leiko49 said:
True, some Leaf owners the past several weeks have gotten satisfaction, in the form of the lemon law protocol, which could lead to a precedence for other owners no longer able to use the car for intended purpose at the point of purchase.

Nissan is not buying these cars through Lemon Law. Actually, they are circumventing Lemon Law,mand buying the cars from the owners directly. You know why!

While it is not formally the Lemon Law, so far as I know they are following the lemon law protocol, i.e., calculation based on all fees paid out minus depreciation of mileage driven. If it looks like a lemon, tastes like a lemon, it's a .....

Here is the exact wording that I got from Nissan when they repurchased my car:
"For customer satisfaction, NNA offers to voluntarily repurchase the above referenced vehicle under the terms of the Arizona State Lemon Law." Does anyone know of a way to check to see if they are marking these repurchased cars as lemons? I assume this should show up on a carfax report. Does anyone on here have the ability to run a carfax on the car that I returned? If so, send me a PM.
 
I wonder why no one has contacted me about my two bar loss...I've reported both of them to Nissan (and have case numbers). The range hasn't diminished to the point of no return for me yet. I worry about next year and the willingness of Nissan to do the right thing then (whenever "then" is for affected drivers) as opposed to now when they are trying to turn the situation around.

I guess I won't take it personally :) Maybe I didn't scream and stomp my feet enough. I really do love the car and I'll drive it until the lease it up as long as it gets me where I need to go.
 
cyellen said:
Maybe I didn't scream and stomp my feet enough. I really do love the car and I'll drive it until the lease it up as long as it gets me where I need to go.

Unfortunately, Nissan isn't proactively jumping out, looking to fix "wrongs". They are looking for the holes in the ship to stick their fingers in. The folks getting satisfaction have:

1. Done media appearances
2. Wrote complaints to everybody they could
3. Complained on public forums
4. Engaged in events to bring attention to these matters (our range test)
5. Been persistent in complaining over many MONTHS

If you aren't doing these things, you are not a problem for Nissan. They know, as we all do, that MOST people just won't make a big fuss, and if their car gets them where they need to go, Nissan will never have to do anything.
 
Sounds like my complaint can take on a new tone...try to play "nice" and you wind up getting no where. If that's how they want to define the rules, then I guess I just have to step it up.

TonyWilliams said:
cyellen said:
Maybe I didn't scream and stomp my feet enough. I really do love the car and I'll drive it until the lease it up as long as it gets me where I need to go.

Unfortunately, Nissan isn't proactively jumping out, looking to fix "wrongs". They are looking for the holes in the ship to stick their fingers in. The folks getting satisfaction have:

1. Done media appearances
2. Wrote complaints to everybody they could
3. Complained on public forums
4. Engaged in events to bring attention to these matters (our range test)
5. Been persistent in complaining over many MONTHS

If you aren't doing these things, you are not a problem for Nissan. They know, as we all do, that MOST people just won't make a big fuss, and if their car gets them where they need to go, Nissan will never have to do anything.
 
cyellen said:
Sounds like my complaint can take on a new tone...try to play "nice" and you wind up getting no where. If that's how they want to define the rules, then I guess I just have to step it up.

TonyWilliams said:
cyellen said:
Maybe I didn't scream and stomp my feet enough. I really do love the car and I'll drive it until the lease it up as long as it gets me where I need to go.

Unfortunately, Nissan isn't proactively jumping out, looking to fix "wrongs". They are looking for the holes in the ship to stick their fingers in. The folks getting satisfaction have:

1. Done media appearances
2. Wrote complaints to everybody they could
3. Complained on public forums
4. Engaged in events to bring attention to these matters (our range test)
5. Been persistent in complaining over many MONTHS

If you aren't doing these things, you are not a problem for Nissan. They know, as we all do, that MOST people just won't make a big fuss, and if their car gets them where they need to go, Nissan will never have to do anything.

Please check out the steps at my website http://wiltingleaf.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I believe the most important is opening a case with the BBB Auto Line. But please file the other complaints as well. They finally repurchased my car via the BBB case. Unfortunately, playing nice with them will get you no where. The "squeaky wheel" is definitely the way to go.
 
TonyWilliams said:
leiko49 said:
. If it looks like a lemon, tastes like a lemon, it's a .....
... an attempt to not get a long list of Lemon Law returns.
Well, they don't deserve to have such a list since they did not make most of these owners file under the law...which is a very good thing because I'm not convinced that Nissan wouldn't have prevailed on those claims if they chose to fight.

Edit: I guess WiltingLeaf may have. Maybe others, too?
 
Picked up my car from ABC Nissan this morning after the tests were done. Staff is nice there. Said they faxed all my info to TN and I should be hearing back soon. It was obvious that ABC guys were told not to say much, but I understand. Nothing was reset in the car, returned the same as I dropped it off.
 
jspearman said:
Picked up my car from ABC Nissan this morning after the tests were done. Staff is nice there. Said they faxed all my info to TN and I should be hearing back soon. It was obvious that ABC guys were told not to say much, but I understand. Nothing was reset in the car, returned the same as I dropped it off.

Like to get a peek at that fax ;)
Hope you get a quick and agreeable answer.

I finally got the call this morning from the Nissan scheduler and "Sonic" is scheduled for his batteryoscopy on Wednesday. Can't wait.
 
I'm among those not happy folks having lost two capacity bars in what is considered a fairly temperate climate... I've submitted detailed reports to CS and have a case number, but nothing but silence from Nissan so far.

WetEV said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
i would have to say that Most LEAFers will have a happy experience.
I will agree with that up front, but there are large numbers that will not have a happy experience.
 
wiltingleaf said:
cyellen said:
Sounds like my complaint can take on a new tone...try to play "nice" and you wind up getting no where. If that's how they want to define the rules, then I guess I just have to step it up.

Please check out the steps at my website http://wiltingleaf.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I believe the most important is opening a case with the BBB Auto Line. But please file the other complaints as well. They finally repurchased my car via the BBB case. Unfortunately, playing nice with them will get you no where. The "squeaky wheel" is definitely the way to go.

+1 I have followed Wiltingleaf's advice and seem to be making some headway. BBB is the way to go IMO.
 
davewill said:
TonyWilliams said:
leiko49 said:
. If it looks like a lemon, tastes like a lemon, it's a .....
... an attempt to not get a long list of Lemon Law returns.
Well, they don't deserve to have such a list since they did not make most of these owners file under the law...which is a very good thing because I'm not convinced that Nissan wouldn't have prevailed on those claims if they chose to fight.

Edit: I guess WiltingLeaf may have. Maybe others, too?

If Nissan thought they could "win them all", they wouldn't be buying cars "voluntarily" now. What do you think would help Nissan (presumably the non-warranty for capacity)? Why is WiltingLeaf different than "4 bar loser Scott", or the other handful that have already been sold back?

Almost ALL (probably without exception) HAVE filed claims against Nissan. Nissan didn't wake up to volunteer buybacks without a whole lot of pushing from the consumer side.
 
spooka said:
wiltingleaf said:
cyellen said:
Sounds like my complaint can take on a new tone...try to play "nice" and you wind up getting no where. If that's how they want to define the rules, then I guess I just have to step it up.

Please check out the steps at my website http://wiltingleaf.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I believe the most important is opening a case with the BBB Auto Line. But please file the other complaints as well. They finally repurchased my car via the BBB case. Unfortunately, playing nice with them will get you no where. The "squeaky wheel" is definitely the way to go.

+1 I have followed Wiltingleaf's advice and seem to be making some headway. BBB is the way to go IMO.
Not sure of that. I filed and was denied by BBB on the grounds that "disputes must arise under a participating manufacturer's written new vehicle warranty. As per your warranty manual; GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS" blah, blah, blah. I have the right to appeal the denial and will, but feel as if I am contesting all of the negative comments made here on MNL all over again. Maybe it's because I live in CA and not AZ. Or maybe Nissan has BBB all lined up now. Either way I now have two copies of my useless warranty. One when I bought the car and one from BBB.
 
ALLWATZ said:
Not sure of that. I filed and was denied by BBB on the grounds that "disputes must arise under a participating manufacturer's written new vehicle warranty. As per your warranty manual; GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS" blah, blah, blah. I have the right to appeal the denial and will, but feel as if I am contesting all of the negative comments made here on MNL all over again. Maybe it's because I live in CA and not AZ. Or maybe Nissan has BBB all lined up now. Either way I now have two copies of my useless warranty. One when I bought the car and one from BBB.
Palm Springs is just barely behind Phoenix as far as the battery aging factor we calculated (Phoenix - 1.81, Palm Springs - 1.77). Never should have been sold there (IMO) without detailed disclosure of likelihood of accelerated battery degradation. Of course, the same applies to most all of Arizona excepting Flagstaff. Have you called Nissan, bitterly complained and made a scene, etc.? That seems to be the only way to get attention/results so far. How about filing under the California Lemon law?
 
I got a phone call from Nissan today. They will arrange my 2011 Leaf (purchased on July 2011) to have a battery check. I live in Houston area and lost 2 bars (one in July and one in August this year). In last battery check, I was informed that I was the first one lost 2 bars in their dealer. I think it is important to get our voice out and let Nissan know the HEAT is the problem in southern areas. They need to fix it.
 
yfhong said:
I got a phone call from Nissan today. They will arrange my 2011 Leaf (purchased on July 2011) to have a battery check. I live in Houston area and lost 2 bars (one in July and one in August this year). In last battery check, I was informed that I was the first one lost 2 bars in their dealer. I think it is important to get our voice out and let Nissan know the HEAT is the problem in southern areas. They need to fix it.
Thank you for the report. Is your case tracked in the Wiki, would you know?
1
 
ALLWATZ said:
Not sure of that. I filed and was denied by BBB on the grounds that "disputes must arise under a participating manufacturer's written new vehicle warranty. As per your warranty manual; GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS" blah, blah, blah. I have the right to appeal the denial and will, but feel as if I am contesting all of the negative comments made here on MNL all over again. Maybe it's because I live in CA and not AZ. Or maybe Nissan has BBB all lined up now. Either way I now have two copies of my useless warranty. One when I bought the car and one from BBB.
Just curious, did you go straight to the BBB after calling customer service at Nissan or have you been to the dealer many times throughout? The BBB process is pretty well defined and both Wilting Leaf and I were constantly in contact with the dealers and gave them lots of opportunities to address the issues.
 
Stoaty said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
as far as the overriding issue of this thread, i am not disputing that. i would be concerned to from lack of information on long term degradation (since what we have does not apply to Phoenix) and when the day will come when the commute will be too far since you cannot wait until that day comes before you start making noise due to the fact that there is a significant amount of time involved.

now, the publicity generated by the "one percent" has done a great job of shortening that time line but also has had the unintended consequence of creating mob mentality where others are jumping on this bandwagon when their issue is relatively mild. so now we have this impression (or you do) that 30% are unhappy.
I think the 30% refers to owners in Arizona. As far as the percent that will be affected, that is pretty easy to tell with the right data. Just take the number of cars sold in areas with a battery aging factor greater than 1.3, and divide it by the total number of cars sold by Nissan. That will give a good approximation of those who are likely to ultimately be unhappy with their battery longevity. Of course, we don't have the numbers in states other than Arizona, but you have to include Texas, and most prominently, Florida. The only way Florida will escape the same fate is if the extreme temperatures in places like Arizona cause problems out or proportion to the battery aging factor. My estimate of problems in California is about 1%, compared to over 11% in Arizona (and eventually all of Arizona).

I was under the impression from the wiki http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss ... that temperature mean and deviation were two of the four factors of battery aging (AKA Calendar life).

Has anybody reported a lost bar in Florida yet? I thought the first Leafs in Florida started in July 2011. So that is over 1 year (one and half summers) ago. Didn't Arizona Leafs start to report lost bars by this time? ***from what I understand from the climate maps, Florida and the tropics don't get nearly as hot as Arizona and the desert does. It just feels that way to humans who sweat.***


Thanks.
 
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