Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[jspearman]

It is official. We have a check. Nissan has the lemon.

Congratulations! Great job making the most of a difficult situation! And thanks to both you and Azdre for educating us about these issues. We've all learned a lot from your experiences, even though we know it was painful for you.

Sorry you had to go through so much hassle, but I'm glad you were able to get the desired outcome. I think you, Scott, and others getting the media involved early has forced Nissan's hand, and hopefully will lead to a solution for the rest of us, so thanks. Good luck with your next car.

 

[MrIanB]

Keep the vin number and anyone with access to car fax, can track the whereabouts of the car unless it gets destroyed. Say it aint so.

Ian B

 

[wiltingleaf]

It's official for me too. I have the check and Nissan has a lemon. I am also interested in what happens to the cars after this. I would really like to see what happens to these cars. I am going to extremely disappointed if they just turn around and put new batteries in them and resell the car to someone else.

I was on NBC12 local news station in AZ last night. Here is a the video

 

[spike09]

Telsa is stating that they expect 70% capacity at 7 years but that the batteries are actually designed to have 70% well past 200k miles.

200k miles is 26.6 Nissan-LEAF-Years(TM) !!!

If Lithium batteries have an expected 30% loss in the first two years, followed by "holding steady" at 70% for the remainder of life, then that's what the advertised range should be based upon. Not 73 miles but 70% that value. i.e. 51.

Why would Nissan advertise thier long term range if no one else does? The EPA LA4 cycle rating of 73 miles allows you to compare the LEAF to other EVs.

Every single car company touts "Up to XX Miles Per Gallon" and downplays "Your mileage will vary". Most models have more than one rating but they only advertise the higher numbers (and of couse they only advertise the lowest price base model!)

The Chevy Volt has the EPA rating is 93 mpge and only 37mpg when the battery is depleted.
Does Chevy advertise the Volt's 37mpg figure or show commercials with owners who have to fill up daily because they drive 300 miles a day?
No. They do just the opposite!

 

[KJD]

I am going to extremely disappointed if they just turn around and put new batteries in them and resell the car to someone else.

What do you think they should do instead ?

 

[JPVLeaf]

It's official for me too. I have the check ....

Wiltingleaf, did you lease or purchase that Leaf?

 

[davewill]

I am going to extremely disappointed if they just turn around and put new batteries in them and resell the car to someone else.

Why? With a new battery it should be nearly as good as any brand-new LEAF. Certainly better than the average used one.

 

[JPWhite]

It's official for me too. I have the check and Nissan has a lemon. I am also interested in what happens to the cars after this. I would really like to see what happens to these cars. I am going to extremely disappointed if they just turn around and put new batteries in them and resell the car to someone else.

I was on NBC12 local news station in AZ last night. Here is a the video

If they put a new battery pack in and sold it someone in Portland Oregon what would be wrong with that?

I'm guessing you mean selling back to someone in the Pheonix area. That wouldn't be too cool, but they are still selling new ones right? So I suppose from their point of view it makes no odds.

 

[tbleakne]

This curve shows that battery voltage DROPS as capacity declines:
http://batteryuniversity.com/_img/content/final2.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The curve shows that voltage drops as SOC declines.

SOC and Capacity are not the same thing. A battery with 33AH capacity and one with 20AH capacity can both be at 100% soc and will both have the same voltage.

another thing to consider. if a battery has 20% capacity loss and is fully charged, SOC still equals 100%.

chemistry determines voltage so if you look at a battery as actually being many very small cells bound together with each cell putting out X voltage @ Y SOC. as the capacity degrades we might have 100 less cells but each cell is still at X voltage @ Y SOC.

The voltage does not decline as the battery degrades. The charge still stops at the same maximum voltage and the car hits Turtle at the same minimum voltage. The degraded battery has fewer Li+ active ions, so fewer Coulombs flow through the battery stack for each volt of charge. The integral of (voltage*current =energy stored) over the charge/discharge cycle is therefore less, and the battery's capacity is diminished.

 

[theaveng]

Nissan buying-back cars is a good way to silence disappointed owners. Now you won't be able to say, "My car lost 6 bars," since there's no more car.

 

[91040]

Status: Owner, 17 months, 31968 miles, Lost first Capacity Bar at 30,302 miles on 9/13/12.

My sympathies to all who are experiencing significant capacity loss and consequently finding the Leaf does not fulfill your driving needs. Each person has their own set of circumstances and this is not meant to criticize or judge actions that are being taken in good faith. It is likely that I will benefit from some of these actions.

I too expected that the battery would be more robust than it seems to be. However, my plan is to keep driving the car as much as possible. I will adjust my charging and driving as needed to get the most out of it as the range decreases. Depending on the circumstances when the car's range is insufficient, I will either replace the battery or buy another car.

As an early adopter of this technology, I thought it unlikely that the Leaf would give me the best return for my money in buying a car. How good or bad a decision it was is still to be determined. My desire was to drive all electric, prove and promote the concept, encourage the EV industry and provide real world data to improve the product. These things are being accomplished. It has also been fun, an adventure, educational and an avenue for meeting many interesting people.

Again, I am sorry for those who have been hurt and hope that things work out for all of you.

Disclaimer: I do not work for any company involved in automotive or electric manufacturing, sales or an electric utility.

 

[shrink]

It's official for me too. I have the check and Nissan has a lemon. I am also interested in what happens to the cars after this. I would really like to see what happens to these cars. I am going to extremely disappointed if they just turn around and put new batteries in them and resell the car to someone else.

I was on NBC12 local news station in AZ last night. Here is a the video

Thanks for all your efforts and the link. This was quite noteworthy:

 

[Weatherman]

It's official for me too. I have the check and Nissan has a lemon. I am also interested in what happens to the cars after this. I would really like to see what happens to these cars. I am going to extremely disappointed if they just turn around and put new batteries in them and resell the car to someone else.

I was on NBC12 local news station in AZ last night. Here is a the video

If they put a new battery pack in and sold it someone in Portland Oregon what would be wrong with that?

I'm guessing you mean selling back to someone in the Pheonix area. That wouldn't be too cool, but they are still selling new ones right? So I suppose from their point of view it makes no odds.

What would be worse is if the dealer just did their magical battery gage reset and Poof! you got 12 bars again. Of course you still have only 15 kWh of usable capacity, but those 12 bars sure do look good. How's a prospective buyer to know, unless they took it on a very long test drive, that nothing had been done except to reset the battery capacity gage?

 

[scottf200]

We have been fighting Nissan and pool contractors too much to have time to evaluate our car options. Another EV? Used, interim car until there are more EV options in a year or two? Another hybrid? Volt? Te$la?

If you are a leaser then lease a Volt and then go back to an EV in a couple/three years when you have more options/data.

Article: Don't buy a Chevy Volt, lease it
http://money.cnn.com/2012/10/02/autos/chevy-volt-lease/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If I had to do it again, I would repeat my purchase of a Volt.

 

[Weatherman]

Status: Owner, 17 months, 31968 miles, Lost first Capacity Bar at 30,302 miles on 9/13/12.

30,000 is just about where I, originally, thought the first bar should drop. Nice to see it can make it that far, even for a car that's not in Seattle or San Francisco.

If I can make it to 30,000 miles (at my rate, it will be about two-and-a-half years from now), I'll be a very happy camper.

 

[theaveng]

We have been fighting Nissan and pool contractors too much to have time to evaluate our car options. Another EV? Used, interim car until there are more EV options in a year or two? Another hybrid? Volt? Te$la?

I start my shopping trip at http://greenercars.org/highlights_byclass_mc.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and look over the list of earth-friendly cars. If I wanted a car I'd buy another insight or civic or beetle TDI off ebay for around $10,000. If I wanted new then it would be the Insight 4-door which is a really lovely car. Or maybe Passat TDI. Anyway try greencars.org first.

 

[spike09]

Nissan buying-back cars is a good way to silence disappointed owners. Now you won't be able to say, "My car lost 6 bars," since there's no more car.

Nissan is between a rock and a hard place. This will fuel the fire for all the EV haters!

 

[TonyWilliams]

We have been fighting Nissan and pool contractors too much to have time to evaluate our car options. Another EV? Used, interim car until there are more EV options in a year or two? Another hybrid? Volt? Te$la?

I start my shopping trip at http://greenercars.org/highlights_byclass_mc.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and look over the list of earth-friendly cars. If I wanted a car I'd buy another insight or civic or beetle TDI off ebay for around $10,000. If I wanted new then it would be the Insight 4-door which is a really lovely car. Or maybe Passat TDI. Anyway try greencars.org first.

Considering what's available to you in PHX, I would get a Volt lease, or another LEAF lease for 24 months max. The deals are actually extremely good, and if 20-30% range reduction at 24 months can work for, why not?

Or, you might consider coming over here to California and getting a Honda Fit, or much more pricy Toyota Rav4 ($599 month).

Coda needs a little love, too. Very stable batteries with TMS in the world's most boring package.

If you drive under 40 miles, of course the Volt will work quite well. But, I wouldn't get one to burn oil everyday, so if you need 50-60 miles, I'd still go LEAF. Over 60 miles, Volt again.

 

[Roadburner440]

Certaintly is good to see some folks finally getting resolution. Even if that means returning their LEAF to Nissan. It certaintly is a shame they are going that route instead of actually finding a fix for the cars so they can remain in Phoenix. Really makes you wonder if there really is no solution. As we roll in to fall I expect things to kind of taper off, and I guess we will start getting the next wave at the beginning of next summer. I am just afraid for my car when the 105+ degree temps start hitting here in Virginia next year. Up until I started taking the battery thing seriously (believing it would just be a couple isolated cars) I was still charging to 100% every few days. Now I have backed off and gone back to 80% in the hopes it holds out. Granted I leased, but I still would like to have a usable car by the end of the lease.

 

[azdre]

I really like the idea of a LEAF lease, but not sure I can convince the mister to put another dime in the Nissan jukebox. I see a lot of spreadsheets in my future.