Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[lorax]

Care to explain how your required driving and charging habits, made it look like a a good idea for you to buy/ or lease a LEAF, in the first place?

Here was my anticipated driving model when I bought the car:
M-F --> 63 mi/day
Charge to 80% overnight
Drive 24 mi to work
Charge at work to 80% (120V charging)
Drive home 24 miles.
Random errands: 15 miles

Sat-Sun --> 60 mi/day
Charge to 100%
Drive 60+ miles a day carting the kids to their activities, museums, movies, etc.

In given year: 5*63 +2*60 = 315 + 120 = 435 mi /wk --> 461 mi/wk * 52 wk/yr = 22,620 mi/year.

Nissan never told me that I couldn't drive the car an average of 60 miles a day. This is well below the EPA estimate of 73 miles/charge. As the car aged past 5 years, I thought I would be able use public EVSE on the weekends as needed.

BTW: This is pretty much how I drove my ICE car before I bought the Leaf -- Nissan sold me on the idea the Leaf was a replacement to my ICE car for local driving. For long distance driving to CA or TX, we would use my wife's Pilot.

Finally, the cost of ownership blew any other vehicle out of the water. More on this later.

Harsha

 

[gaswalla]

Well, my LEAF is so fed up with this whole thing, it decided to speak for itself...

http://player.vimeo.com/video/50497959

very cute and to the point.

There will be some folks on this forum (especially the ones that blame the owners for any problems and self proclaim their no-loss batteries) that point out the difference between "power" and "capacity," though.

 

[gaswalla]

Care to explain how your required driving and charging habits, made it look like a a good idea for you to buy/ or lease a LEAF, in the first place?

Here was my anticipated driving model when I bought the car:
M-F --> 63 mi/day
Charge to 80% overnight
Drive 24 mi to work
Charge at work to 80% (120V charging)
Drive home 24 miles.
Random errands: 15 miles

Sat-Sun --> 60 mi/day
Charge to 100%
Drive 60+ miles a day carting the kids to their activities, museums, movies, etc.

In given year: 5*63 +2*60 = 315 + 120 = 435 mi /wk --> 461 mi/wk * 52 wk/yr = 22,620 mi/year.

Nissan never told me that I couldn't drive the car an average of 60 miles a day. This is well below the EPA estimate of 73 miles/charge. As the car aged past 5 years, I thought I would be able use public EVSE on the weekends as needed.

BTW: This is pretty much how I drove my ICE car before I bought the Leaf -- Nissan sold me on the idea the Leaf was a replacement to my ICE car for local driving. For long distance driving to CA or TX, we would use my wife's Pilot.

Finally, the cost of ownership blew any other vehicle out of the water. More on this later.

Harsha

+1...

 

[spooka]

Well, my LEAF is so fed up with this whole thing, it decided to speak for itself...

http://player.vimeo.com/video/50497959

very cute and to the point.

There will be some folks on this forum (especially the ones that blame the owners for any problems and self proclaim their no-loss batteries) that point out the difference between "power" and "capacity," though.

Yes but this is directed at the non EV folk who would think of it and understand the concept better by mixing the terms IMO.

 

[gaswalla]

Well, my LEAF is so fed up with this whole thing, it decided to speak for itself...

http://player.vimeo.com/video/50497959

very cute and to the point.

There will be some folks on this forum (especially the ones that blame the owners for any problems and self proclaim their no-loss batteries) that point out the difference between "power" and "capacity," though.

Yes but this is directed at the non EV folk who would think of it and understand the concept better by mixing the terms IMO.

Hey, I love it.. hope it goes viral

 

[spike09]

Well, my LEAF is so fed up with this whole thing, it decided to speak for itself...

http://player.vimeo.com/video/50497959

very cute and to the point.

There will be some folks on this forum (especially the ones that blame the owners for any problems and self proclaim their no-loss batteries) that point out the difference between "power" and "capacity," though.

Most of us self proclaiming our no-loss batteries are merely pointing out that the majority of LEAFs do not have any noticeable range loss.

 

[azdre]

Well, my LEAF is so fed up with this whole thing, it decided to speak for itself...

http://player.vimeo.com/video/50497959

very cute and to the point.

There will be some folks on this forum (especially the ones that blame the owners for any problems and self proclaim their no-loss batteries) that point out the difference between "power" and "capacity," though.

Most of us self proclaiming our no-loss batteries are merely pointing out that the majority of LEAFs do not have any noticeable range loss.

It seems that many of the self proclaimed no-loss poster's cars are also less than 1 year old (except those in the NW). If I rewind to when my car was 14 months old, I couldn't have been happier with a car (actually it was still such a cool novelty, I'd almost call it a toy I loved it so much). I had noticed a little loss in range at about the 1 year mark, but it seemed like the battery was aging and this was expected. Then the 2nd summer hit, and it was a landslide of range loss. California and AZ were initial launch states, so a lot of our cars are generally 1 summer older than cars in most other states.

 

[gaswalla]

Most of us self proclaiming our no-loss batteries are merely pointing out that the majority of LEAFs do not have any noticeable range loss.

A very bold and naive statement for a guy from Miami that has owned his LEAF for less than a year. I do hope you continue to have "no range loss," but unless you're the guy driving 20 miles/day, well..., you know.

 

[thankyouOB]

Most of us self proclaiming our no-loss batteries are merely pointing out that the majority of LEAFs do not have any noticeable range loss.

A very bold and naive statement for a guy from Miami that has owned his LEAF for less than a year. I do hope you continue to have "no range loss," but unless you're the guy driving 20 miles/day, well..., you know.

sounds more like something truthful, rather than naive.
(my leaf is 17 months old.)

 

[Stoaty]

Most of us self proclaiming our no-loss batteries are merely pointing out that the majority of LEAFs do not have any noticeable range loss.

A true statement (so far), but it certainly feels like this is "rubbing it in" or minimizing the problems of those that do have significant range loss. For the record, I don't have any range problems, but as one who has been keeping up the Wiki it looks like this is a growing problem that is likely to spread as time passes and those in the non-first-tier states with hot climates have owned their cars a bit longer. Remember also that since Nissan first commented on the problem the number of cases of early capacity bar loss has grown from "5 or 6" to "less than 0.3%" (39 cases), to 106 cases currently recorded in the Wiki, to 147 cases (apparently from inside info) in the most recent article at insideevs.com. That last number calculates to about 1% of the 14,000 or so Leafs sold in the U.S. so far--and a lot of those Leafs haven't been owned long enough to see the effects of heat plus mileage. It remains to be seen how much of this apparent capacity loss is due to battery degradation and how much to poor instrumentation; both appear to be factors. Judging by the range test in Arizona, from 22% to 64% of the lost range by percent Gids (average 42%) is due to instrument error. The other 58% (average) is due to battery degradation.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Telsa is stating that they expect 70% capacity at 7 years (ouch.. sounds familiar?) but that the batteries are actually designed to have 70% well past 200k miles. Tesla does have a track record of taking care of their customers with battery concerns and has swapped out batteries if needed.

200k miles is 26.6 Nissan-LEAF-Years(TM) !!!

I hope you bring that Model S by my house to check it out :mrgreen:

 

[DaveEV]

Well, my LEAF is so fed up with this whole thing, it decided to speak for itself...

http://player.vimeo.com/video/50497959

very cute and to the point.

There will be some folks on this forum (especially the ones that blame the owners for any problems and self proclaim their no-loss batteries) that point out the difference between "power" and "capacity," though.

I'd be the last to blame any owner for any capacity loss, but I'll be the first to say that using power/capacity/energy interchangeably only perpetuates the misunderstanding.

Technically:

All LEAFs have shown to be 100% capable of delivering 100% of rated power.
All LEAFs will lose capacity (their ability to hold energy) over time dependent on usage.

If these LEAFs were not capable of delivering their rated power, then they would be deemed due for replacement under warranty terms.

 

[wiltingleaf]

Well, my LEAF is so fed up with this whole thing, it decided to speak for itself...

http://player.vimeo.com/video/50497959

Love the video spooka. Maybe we should do an interview between Sonic and Eva to see if they are seeing similar symptoms!! I love the creativity here. I hope you don't mind, but I posted the video on my blog too.

 

[JPVLeaf]

What does 'full price' include? If one purchased their Leaf, how is having claimed the $7500 federal tax credit being handled? Are purchasers returning that tax credit?

For purchasers, the tax credit doesn't affect price of the car at all. If you bought the car in any tax year you can claim the credit for that year's taxes. What you do with the car after that is your business. The IRS doesn't care unless, perhaps, they suspect you bought it specifically for resale. If you have been driving it long enough to lose a capacity bar, that's one thing you don't need to worry about.

Thanks. I assumed the IRS isn't going to be involved in the case of a buy back under a Lemon Law.

But what I was wondering was is 'full price' based on the buyer's purchase price or the out-of-pocket price? The out-of-pocket price being the purchase price minus any tax credits or rebates. If Nissan were to buy back a car under the Lemon Law at 'full price', I would think that they would ask the buyer what portion of the tax credit they had claimed, and if they received any other rebates (state/local). If this were not disclosed by the buyer, then it would appear that the Leaf owner was 'double dipping'. To avoid this, the 'full price' would be based on the true out-of-pocket price. Is that correct? Anyone know for sure?

 

[planet4ever]

Thanks. I assumed the IRS isn't going to be involved in the case of a buy back under a Lemon Law. But what I was wondering was is 'full price' based on the buyer's purchase price or the out-of-pocket price? The out-of-pocket price being the purchase price minus any tax credits or rebates. If Nissan were to buy back a car under the Lemon Law at 'full price', I would think that they would ask the buyer what portion of the tax credit they had claimed, and if they received any other rebates (state/local). If this were not disclosed by the buyer, then it would appear that the Leaf owner was 'double dipping'. To avoid this, the 'full price' would be based on the true out-of-pocket price. Is that correct? Anyone know for sure?

I don't have any Nissan inside information, but I certainly hope that isn't true. You and/or your financing company paid Nissan full price when you signed the purchase agreement, less any reductions you managed to get from the dealer. There were no manufacturer rebates, and no credits (on a purchase) in that agreement for any government incentives. Since Nissan was paid full price, that is what the buyback should be based on.

The US Congress didn't put a time limit on the $7500 tax credit, so that money is yours. Some state or local governments did put time limits on their rebates, and if so you may have to pay money to them. But it would make no sense to have to pay the government and also pay Nissan for the same rebate.

Ray

 

[mark1313]

That was great ..That needs to be put on U-tube and sent to Mark Perry..

Well, my LEAF is so fed up with this whole thing, it decided to speak for itself...

http://player.vimeo.com/video/50497959

 

[mark1313]

Are you going to file the lemon law next

Hello all!

Is there anyone in buy back negotiations? Looks like they are offering full price + fees & tax - your usage based on the AZ lemon law. Love my Leaf, but at my rate of loss it will be hard to make a beer run!

I filed with BBB, and the next day the Leaf hotline person assigned to my case number called and asked if I wanted to pursue a buy back option. I said yes, and he said he would initiate the process and contact me in ten days. I would then lease a 2012, because I love the car. But a lost capacity bar at 6,881 miles?

Wow! I have lost 3 with 24k on the car. I was told that I drove the car too much! My Leaf was one of the ones they took to Casa Grande.

 

[JRP3]

If these LEAFs were not capable of delivering their rated power, then they would be deemed due for replacement under warranty terms.

Did anyone do power tests on the three and four bar losers? Just wondering at what point capacity loss translates into power loss.

 

[wiltingleaf]

Call to all AZ Wilting Leaf owners. I'm meeting with NBC 12 news between 11:30am-noon today to do an interview. If you would like to share your story please join us. Check out my blog for address and map information. Please PM me or send me an email to [email protected] to let me know who we should be looking for.

 

[spike09]

Most of us self proclaiming our no-loss batteries are merely pointing out that the majority of LEAFs do not have any noticeable range loss.

A true statement (so far), but it certainly feels like this is "rubbing it in" or minimizing the problems of those that do have significant range loss. For the record, I don't have any range problems, but as one who has been keeping up the Wiki it looks like this is a growing problem that is likely to spread as time passes and those in the non-first-tier states with hot climates have owned their cars a bit longer. Remember also that since Nissan first commented on the problem the number of cases of early capacity bar loss has grown from "5 or 6" to "less than 0.3%" (39 cases), to 106 cases currently recorded in the Wiki, to 147 cases (apparently from inside info) in the most recent article at insideevs.com. That last number calculates to about 1% of the 14,000 or so Leafs sold in the U.S. so far--and a lot of those Leafs haven't been owned long enough to see the effects of heat plus mileage. It remains to be seen how much of this apparent capacity loss is due to battery degradation and how much to poor instrumentation; both appear to be factors. Judging by the range test in Arizona, from 22% to 64% of the lost range by percent Gids (average 42%) is due to instrument error. The other 58% (average) is due to battery degradation.

I will take my chances if the odds are currently 99% in my favor! I still see plenty of posts from owners over 14 months who have no noticeable loss.

I have read much on the "effect" of range loss and now Nissan has hastily offered up two specific facts on the "cause" in response to speculation festering on this forum. Luckily there are also forum members collecting real world observational data that hopefully can lead to a solution. One that can be fixed without a major design change would be ideal for us current owners.

I was well aware when I bought my LEAF that the battery would degrade and it would happen sooner than later. I had plenty of time to do my homework while on the Tier II wait list! Remember those special EV disclosure documents we had to sign before Nissan even gave us our cars? There is no such thing as a perfect car. They all have their limitations. Especially a new model based on a new battery technology.

Li-Ion has never been used in a mass production car. It is too early to judge Nissan decision not to include active thermal management. GM is already working on batteries that can tolerate desert heat and the 500 mile battery is close to reality. I know future technology advances are of little help to current owners right now, especially those losing range worse than predicted.

Buying or leasing a new car is not a sound fiscal investment no matter how much you save on gas! The naïve owners I see are those with a round trip commute longer than 50 miles who did not take into account any battery loss.