Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[Stoaty]

technically it would be "normal" behavior if all the cars in AZ are doing it :lol:

Unfortunately, my guess is that this is "normal" behavior for cars in AZ. Not sure how it could be otherwise with the high temps and lack of TMS. The problem is that Nissan didn't tell the purchasers before the sale that this would be normal behavior in AZ. The Leaf design is probably fine for many (most?) areas of the country, it just doesn't work for Arizona/Texas/California desert.

 

[mark1313]

I saw tonight news 5 story,that was interesting in how they got so many of you together

I also found it interesting in how Nissan denied that there was even a battery problem in AZ..

Now we need to wait out and see what happens with the Leafs in Casa Grande..

I would like to give a special thanks to ch. 5 news for running the stories and to N0C8H18 for just leaving his Leaf at the dealer and demanding that they fix it (Battery)before he picks it up again..

 

[Volusiano]

What do you guys suppose they're going to do to test those 5 or 6 Leafs in Casa Grande? I mean, I'm confused because they make it sound like it's a mystery to them why these batteries lose capacity and they now have to run tests to find out why. I thought it's already pretty obvious that heat is the primary cause for the loss. I also thought that they've claimed that they already extensively tested the battery in AZ before. So what new information could they get possibly get from these batteries that they couldn't have gotten before?

Sure, I can understand if they missed the mark on a 5-year or 10-year accelerated testing or something like that. But this failure happens in only the first year of ownership. So I'm sure they don't need accelerated testing to figure this out. I'm sure they must have been doing real time testing already for years already, or at least for 1 year before they launch the product, wouldn't you think? After all, they claim that they've been working on their own battery technology for 10+ years or so already, so they know their battery inside out. So well that they're confident they don't need TMS. So well that they didn't hesitate to make AZ their Tier1 state. So how could they have missed this issue so badly that they now need to run additional tests???

I sure hope they're not just putting up a smoke screen pretending to test these cars just to buy time and drag this "testing" out to another 3 or 6 months in hope to use the time to defuse the issue and keep the owners from continuing to be vocal.

I mean look at GM. They didn't need so use further testing of their battery pack as an excuse before announcing a buy-back program to restore consumer confidence in their product right away. I still think that in conjunction with doing testing on these handful of cars, Nissan still need to issue a formal response of some sort to assure their customer that they will stand by their product and make it right no matter what the outcome of their new battery testing will be. And I'm not seeing that. First I see denial (5 out of 30 thousands). Then silence. Then only forced, vague reactive response only after owners dragged the issue to the media and they couldn't keep their silence anymore. And now another vague response saying "we're looking into it and are doing further testing". More like stonewalling tactics to me than displaying an immediate commitment to stand behind their product 100%.

I also don't buy the excuse some of our posters allowed them for being a different culture and therefore don't want to lose face. Even if that's true, that's not an acceptable excuse that we have to put up with. They're running a global business and they choose to sell into all different cultures and geographies. Their CEO is not even Japanese. They have a US branch that interfaces with US customers, so there's no reason why we should expect less than a response that's more in line with US business practices and US culture.

 

[RegGuheert]

Well said, Volusiano!

I am in full agreement with you here. This is what I wrote two months ago in the other thread:

Whatever technical problems may or may not exist with the LEAF are truly the least of Nissan's problems. If their potential customers decide that the batteries may not "last" and that Nissan will not stand behind their product, all of their technical efforts to date will be for naught.

If Nissan plays their hand improperly, they will turn an issue which affects a small portion of the potential market into a massive disaster. Failing to communicate on this issue is absolutely the WORST thing they can do right now.

If they let their scientists study the problem much longer without taking some action to address the needs of their current and potential future customers, then it won't matter how great of a technical solution they have, they will have already failed.

Frankly, they are doing just what I think they shouldn't. But I think they fear that doing anything else will "tip their hand" and show the world that they knew all along what would happen.

 

[Herm]

Perhaps they can pull a temperature history out of the computers at Casa Blanca to account for the losses.. it seems unlikely all 5 cars have been abused by charging or speeding too much. Perhaps a relatively simple tweak to the electrolyte chemistry will be enough to boost battery life to 5 years in Phoenix, perhaps they may find out they need a full blown temperature controlled BMS.

My guess is that they will compare these 5 Leafs to their previously tested vehicles, and they will come back with new batteries.

They want to know why these vehicles are aging different from the test vehicles.. it may be something subtle.

 

[Stoaty]

I think this is a perfectly reasonable first step. Advantages (for Nissan):

1) They can appear to be taking the issue seriously, thus blunting popular anger--for a short time
2) It buys time for them--a large corporation--to decide what to do about this problem
3) It is potentially a face-saving maneuver: "We just found a problem with the Leaf; here is our solution."

They know the issue isn't going away, so they will have to come up with some kind of response.

 

[mwalsh]

My guess is that they will compare these 5 Leafs to their previously tested vehicles, and they will come back with new batteries.

If that's ALL that happens, it's not enough (unless there are some magic chemistry tweaks), because owners will just find themselves in the same place in 18 months time.

 

[Herm]

Sorry mwalsh, late edit.. they mostly want to know why these cars aged different than their test vehicles.. once they pin it down then they can offer a solution: different additives for the electrolyte, active TMS, software changes etc. Meanwhile a 13 month old car with 3 bars missing will get a new battery, car with one bar missing will just get a software change.

 

[RegGuheert]

...car with one bar missing will just get a software change.

I agree this is inevitable. They will tweak the software to show they are doing something.

Unfortunately, they will probably want to change the firmware in all of our LEAFs, but I will not be first in line to get this new software. Honda updated the software in our HCH nine years after we bought it causing a significant reduction in fuel economy. I expect any firmware updates from Nissan will likely reduce the available range on our cars.

 

[mwalsh]

I expect any firmware updates from Nissan will likely reduce the available range on our cars.

Yeah, like I'll let that happen. I still don't have the first firmware update, and have no intention of getting it. And I'd just as soon pull the fuse from the telematics than give the opportunity to sneak that update on when they do the telematics one.

 

[Herm]

They would get sued if they did a range reduction, but it could be something subtler than that.. system defaults to 80% or 70% charges, you have to override to get to 100% or limits on regen depending on temperature. They could entice you with a warranty extension as a reward.. no capacity coverage for an extra year

I can see a clause in future cars that says no warranty coverage if you dont get mandatory updates.

 

[azdre]

I saw tonight news 5 story,that was interesting in how they got so many of you together

We actually planned that little get-together right in this thread and the reporter heard about it. It was amazingly easy to organize a gathering with so many people that we didn't know. And it was a good time. I think we should probably do another one when we get our cars back. Watch the Phoenix thread for info in a week or so.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

They would get sued if they did a range reduction, but it could be something subtler than that.. system defaults to 80% or 70% charges, you have to override to get to 100% or limits on regen depending on temperature. They could entice you with a warranty extension as a reward.. no capacity coverage for an extra year

I can see a clause in future cars that says no warranty coverage if you dont get mandatory updates.

you mean like it is now where if you dont do mandatory maintenance like oil changes it invalidates your warranty?

 

[JPWhite]

It WOULD be nice to know the magic number... the number of degrees of ambient temperature where it's no longer safe for the battery, whether it's outside in the blazing sun, or outside in the shade, or in a garage. The manual says 120 degrees for 24 hours, but we're not hitting that for a lot of people, yet still the battery capacity losses. We need to know the magic number.

Can't find the reference right now, but similar battery chemistry to the LEAF's is recommended to keep the battery between 14-86 degrees F. I try and keep my garage below 86 for overnight if at all possible based on this. Maybe a waste of time, but anything I can do I will. Of course when it's 90+ outside in the shade while parked at at work my marginally cooler garage doesn't help the situation any.

 

[cyellen]

I understand why they want to see and test the cars with 2 and 3 bar loss, but wouldn't it make sense to also include a one bar loss so they can have it when it actually loses additional bars. There is nothing saying that the 2/3 bar loss cars will (or won't) soon lose another, but I think we can all agree that it is only a matter of time (a short matter of time, probably) before cars like mine, with a one bar loss, will move into the two bar zone.

 

[thankyouOB]

in case you missed it over on the other thread where this same issue is being discussed; hard to know where to look and I suggest one be retired while the other keep going)

i wouldnt expect a relaxed, wait-and-see attitude from a majority of hot hot posters here.
that may be a good thing or not (as they have shone a light on an interesting phenomena with the Leaf).

Recall we had the very same level of passion and over-the-top emotion 15 months ago around the delay in delivery and "line-jumping."
that has all been resolved, as far as I can tell.
Nissan will likely handle this well and determine a solution. I would like to see some official response though, one that let's us know what is going on.

Can one of the hot hot folks remind me of how long ago this issue surfaced?
my memory is that it was about 4-6 weeks.

by the way, is Nissan borrowing the impacted cars; or testing them while the drivers keep them? how many?
I have had a hard time determining from the posts what exactly is going on.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I understand why they want to see and test the cars with 2 and 3 bar loss, but wouldn't it make sense to also include a one bar loss so they can have it when it actually loses additional bars. There is nothing saying that the 2/3 bar loss cars will soon lose another, but I think we can all agree that it is only a matter of time (a short matter of time, probably) before cars like mine, with a one bar loss, will move into the two bar zone.

guessing the mechanism causing the loss does not change when going from 12 to 11 or 10 to 9.

also guessing they want to reduce their cost. battery pack replacement right now is probably pretty expensive. guessing it will be much cheaper after TN plant starts running

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

in case you missed it over on the other thread where this same issue is being discussed; hard to know where to look and I suggest one be retired while the other keep going)

i wouldnt expect a relaxed, wait-and-see attitude from a majority of hot hot posters here.
that may be a good thing or not (as they have shone a light on an interesting phenomena with the Leaf).

Recall we had the very same level of passion and over-the-top emotion 15 months ago around the delay in delivery and "line-jumping."
that has all been resolved, as far as I can tell.
Nissan will likely handle this well and determine a solution. I would like to see some official response though, one that let's us know what is going on.

Can one of the hot hot folks remind me of how long ago this issue surfaced?
my memory is that it was about 4-6 weeks.

by the way, is Nissan borrowing the impacted cars; or testing them while the drivers keep them? how many?
I have had a hard time determining from the posts what exactly is going on.

the LEAFs are being taken to Casa something or another. during this time, Nissan will provide loaner with $250 gas card (wow that is gonna SUCK bigtime) while they have the cars so sounds like the $250 is partially gas cost and "hush" money but will have to see how it plays out

from what i understand about 6 are going?

 

[opossum]

For those who missed it live on the news last night, the follow-up story *video* on KPHO CBS 5 is now posted to the follow-up article that went online yesterday:

http://www.kpho.com/story/19078685/nissan-investigating-bad-batteries-in-arizona" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

in case you missed it over on the other thread where this same issue is being discussed; hard to know where to look and I suggest one be retired while the other keep going)

Yeah, I suggested killing that other thread to avoid further splintering this discussion, but it kept going... and now we have requests to start brand new discussions! :?

i wouldnt expect a relaxed, wait-and-see attitude from a majority of hot hot posters here.

I can't speak for the dozens who are *not* having their cars towed away for testing. All I can say is that I will continue pushing to ensure that *everyone* is made whole, and not just the 5 or 6 of us who are having our cars put on tow trucks bound for Casa Grande. At the very least, we'll be regrouping both in-person and online when our cars return and/or when we receive "conclusions" or "decisions" from Nissan. Thus far, we only have some vague statements about what sorts of testing and goals they have in mind for this handful of cars. We don't want to spread that information until it is more concrete. A few of our cars will likely get turned in Monday morning, so we'll see what happens and what - if anything - is put in writing when we hand over our key fobs.

Can one of the hot hot folks remind me of how long ago this issue surfaced?
my memory is that it was about 4-6 weeks.

Our car is the one with the earliest (recorded) lost capacity bar... in late April. See the beginning of this thread and the wiki lists for details.

by the way, is Nissan borrowing the impacted cars; or testing them while the drivers keep them? how many?
I have had a hard time determining from the posts what exactly is going on.

5 or 6 cars are being handed over to Nissan and towed to their test facility in Casa Grande, which is roughly 50 miles south of Phoenix. The first few cars will probably get dropped off at dealerships Monday morning, and we are told we should see the cars back a few days into August. And yes, they have offered at least three of us loaner cars and $250 gas cards.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

considering the action Nissan is taking and the confusion on this forum, i think we should most definitely start another thread concerning the cars taken to Casa Grande... (is that the right place?)

after all, ALL the current threads are mostly speculation. we have moved on from that stage.