Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[klapauzius]

even without replacing the battery, it costs about 4k to take the battery out and reinstall it.
I had it done at the local Nissan dealer in connection with an accident and repair.

I was given that figure as the estimate for that work. I will have the bill in about a week.
It seems pretty high to me.

Probably $1k per screw. Seems like a fair price, given that the work is done by brain surgeons with additional degrees in
theoretical physics and applied hyperspace propulsion.

I guess just looking at it will incur already $400 in charges.

 

[pchilds]

They probably have the fly in, an engineer from Japan, to remove the battery. :lol:

I believe in the end Nissan will do the right thing. They extended the warranty on the CVT transmission in my 2005 Murrano to 10 years and 120K miles, because, there were problems with a few of them.

 

[cwerdna]

I believe in the end Nissan will do the right thing. They extended the warranty on the CVT transmission in my 2005 Murrano to 10 years and 120K miles, because, there were problems with a few of them.

For those who aren't aware, he's referring to http://www.nissanassist.com/faqs.php?menu=3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.nissanassist.com/vehicles.php?menu=5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Oddly enough, the Altima Hybrid is included (my mom has an 07) even though its CVT is not belt/cone based and NOTHING like any of the CVTs in the rest of the Nissan lineup. It's basically Toyota's power split device and wouldn't surprise me if the whole unit is supplied by Toyota or its supplier.

 

[JPWhite]

They probably have the fly in, an engineer from Japan, to remove the battery. :lol:

I believe in the end Nissan will do the right thing. They extended the warranty on the CVT transmission in my 2005 Murrano to 10 years and 120K miles, because, there were problems with a few of them.

Here's hoping you're right. The retroactive warranty on the CVT's was one of the reasons I thought I'd take a chance with new technology with Nissan. They stuck their necks out implementing CVT across the line before any other manufacturer, had repair cost issues and ultimately stood by their product. Let's hope they do the same for the EV platform.

One major difference is that bad press about repair costs for their transmissions could affect sales across many in their range of vehicles. With EVs the sales effect will be much smaller, though given their massive investment in this EV platform, I'd think they'd want to preserve future sales also.

 

[DaveEV]

FWIW - here's an example of what battery thermal management system can do for you - found this on the TeslaMotorsClub forums:

For the AZ guys - I've had my Roadster in Surprise for just short of 3 years now.
...
I've plugged in the car to recharge at 1 to 2 am in my non-cooled, always hot garage nearly every night since I got the car.
...
It's just a car and I try to treat it like a car. I'm not babying it, nor running spreadsheets or doing battery pack data analysis because that's not interesting to me. I try to follow the instructions Tesla gave me, leaving the car plugged in when it's in the garage. ... My original standard ideal mileage charges were 192ish. I'm now getting 185ish after 22,500 miles and 3 years. Hope this helps someone. PM me if you have any direct questions I can try to answer.

~4% loss in capacity after 3 years in the AZ heat with laptop batteries. TMS works! I read somewhere that Tesla is aiming for 18 years before the Model S battery degrades 30%... Looks like they'll hit it.

 

[LEAFfan]

The fact that many have reported rapidly dropping gid counts and Scangauge reports over the last few months, as temperatures have risen, seem to me, to indicate that either Nissan has equipped LEAFs with batteries with extremely poor resistance to hot temperatures, or that there is another factor at work.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree here.
I'm guessing you aren't familiar with typical charge profiles.
Temperature compensation during a charge profile is typically manifested as a voltage compensation. A typical charge profile will charge constant current until the batteries reach voltage X, then switch to a constant voltage until the current drops to Y amps. They typically will then switch to a low constant current until voltage Z is reached. When there is a temperature compensation, that will cause the BMS to adjust voltage X and Z. I don't know about other people, but I know I saw the full pack voltage after 100% charge yet I have two bars missing. So with that, my speculation is that it has nothing (or very little) to do with the BMS, and mostly to do with the batteries degrading in the heat.

+1!

 

[edatoakrun]

The fact that many have reported rapidly dropping gid counts and Scangauge reports over the last few months, as temperatures have risen, seem to me, to indicate that either Nissan has equipped LEAFs with batteries with extremely poor resistance to hot temperatures, or that there is another factor at work.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree here.
I'm guessing you aren't familiar with typical charge profiles.

Temperature compensation during a charge profile is typically manifested as a voltage compensation. A typical charge profile will charge constant current until the batteries reach voltage X, then switch to a constant voltage until the current drops to Y amps. They typically will then switch to a low constant current until voltage Z is reached. When there is a temperature compensation, that will cause the BMS to adjust voltage X and Z. I don't know about other people, but I know I saw the full pack voltage after 100% charge yet I have two bars missing. So with that, my speculation is that it has nothing (or very little) to do with the BMS, and mostly to do with the batteries degrading in the heat.

I am trying to use other's quotes fairly to frame this question. Feel free to correct me if I have erred in any way, in this summary.

"turbo2ltr" So I charged last night to 100%.

GID is 213, pack volts is 393.75 (assuming I did the conversion right)
I lost the first bar at 228 gid.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&p=209773#p209773" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Last October, TickTock reported:

Started charging at 11pm with 61 gids and 2 bars remaining
Ended 80% charge at 2am with 197 gids, 9 bars, 386V having drawn 11kWh from the wall
Started charging again at 10:20am with 197 and 9 bars
Ended 100% charge at 11:30am with 238 gids, 12 bars, 394V having drawn 4.3kWh from the wall

I guess I should mention my capacity guage still indicates 12 bars...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=5582&start=120" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Subsequently, IIRC, TickTock reported significant increase in "100%" charge gids/kWh capacity over the Winter, and a decline this Spring, also (I believe) all at the same ~394V. Sorry, I can't find his original post(s), just the re-posted graph here.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=5582&start=350" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"turbo2ltr" I believe TickTock's data to be correct and show higher GID at 100% charge with cooler weather. I cannot say if it's the BMS limiting it, or a factor of the chemistry. Maybe someone else knows.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9293&start=60" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My question is, if the BMS was not limiting charge, as the pack voltage reports would indicate, what sort of battery chemistry could cause the large decrease in charge accepted, that TickTock reported, apparently due to higher battery temperatures, and the "recovery" to the significantly higher kWh charge his battery pack subsequently accepted, at lower battery temperatures?

Isn't this unexpected behavior from any Li-ion battery?

Do other extreme-climate LEAFs have gid histories over the last year, that differ from TickTock's experience?

In any case, as others have pointed out, another month or two of hotter weather is on the way for most North American owners. If Phoenix LEAF Batteries actually lost capacity at a near 1%-per-week rate this Spring, shouldn't we expect that rate would not slow much, and maybe even accelerate during the considerably hotter weather to come?

And LEAFs in not-quite-as hot regions, might be expected to lose their first bars in large numbers, as their Summer temperatures reach "Spring in Phoenix", correct?

 

[klapauzius]

And LEAFs in not-quite-as hot regions, might be expected to lose their first bars in large numbers, as their Summer temperatures reach "Spring in Phoenix", correct?

Yesterday it was 56F in Seattle. So I am not expecting any heat related issues to show up here anytime soon....

But I think the loss is a time integral of exposure, so longer exposure to high temps = larger degradation. If i.e. Phoenix has x times more "hot days" (i.e. hot = detrimental to the battery) than location Y it takes x times more years to show up with a bar lost.

Its not a single event, i.e. a few days at 100F, as many might experience right now will not significantly affect the battery.

 

[edatoakrun]

And LEAFs in not-quite-as hot regions, might be expected to lose their first bars in large numbers, as their Summer temperatures reach "Spring in Phoenix", correct?

Yesterday it was 56F in Seattle. So I am not expecting any heat related issues to show up here anytime soon....

But I think the loss is a time integral of exposure, so longer exposure to high temps = larger degradation. If i.e. Phoenix has x times more "hot days" (i.e. hot = detrimental to the battery) than location Y it takes x times more years to show up with a bar lost.

Its not a single event, i.e. a few days at 100F, as many might experience right now will not significantly affect the battery.

Yes, but I expect that many other LEAFs (perhaps, including my own) will have accumulated greater long-term heat exposure by the end of their second Summer, and also greater exposure to calendar aging, than some 11 Bar LEAFs had in Phoenix, when they lost their first bar.

What seems really odd, is that a few of the Phoenix 11 bar LEAFs reported on the lost-a-bar list (p100) look to be reported as delivered after some of the hottest part of last Summer. Maybe they sat on the Lot for a while, baking away at 100% charge, before delivery?


You can use the link below to find average, as well as daily high, low, etc., for your own location. I think a lot of regions get "Phoenix Spring" (Apr May Jun) temps, for extended periods of time, in midsummer.

Phoenix Area (ThreadEx Station)
Monthly Totals/Averages
Average Temperature (degrees F)
Years: 1981-2010

Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Annual
Average 56.5 59.8 65.3 72.8 82.1 90.9 94.8 93.6 88.4 76.7 64.2 55.5 75.0


Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Annual
2011 55.7 55.2 67.8 74.3 78.8 90.8 95.2 98.3 91.4 78.8 63.5 53.2 75.2

Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Annual
2012 58.7 60.3 65.9 75.1 84.5 93.8 -

http://www.nws.noaa.gov/climate/xmacis.php?wfo=psr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[vrwl]

Another battery loss to report.

Purchased: May 1,2011
Leaf SL

Lost one battery capacity bar today (6/24/2012)
Mileage: 13,105
Last battery check: March 2012 (excellent report)

Charging/Driving habits:

Driven about 40miles a day on weekdays, longer drives on weekends.
Charged to 80% almost always. Charged to 100% once a week or less.
Driven mostly non-highway.
Never DC Fast charged ever

BTW is there a thread that is keeping track of the number of owners reporting this?

It looks like this car may have just been traded in, saw this car listed on a recent CarFax report (VIN #0923):

Detailed History

Owner 1
Purchased: 2011
Type: Personal
Where: Texas
Est. miles/year: 11,854/yr
Est. length owned: 5/20/11 - 7/1/12
(1 yr. 1 mo.)


Low mileage! This owner drove less than the industry average of 15,000 miles per year.

Date: Mileage: Source: Comments:
05/20/2011 5 Texas
Motor Vehicle Dept.
Southlake, TX
Title #xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Title issued or updated
First owner reported
Registered as
personal vehicle
Vehicle color noted as Blue

05/01/2012 Texas
Motor Vehicle Dept.
Southlake, TX
Title #xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Registration issued or renewed
Passed safety inspection
Vehicle color noted as Blue

07/01/2012 13,251 Vandergriff Service
Arlington, TX
817-557-1200
Vehicle offered for sale

 

[TickTock]

Quite likely in response to this thread... I have to admit that even I considered selling mine when azdre and turbo2ltr reported losing their bar to avoid the sudden depreciation a lost bar creates... and I'm "all in." Can't blame someone a little more down to earth for bailing. I would have except I REALLY like the car.

 

[DesertDenizen]

Quite likely in response to this thread... I have to admit that even I considered selling mine when azdre and turbo2ltr reported losing their bar to avoid the sudden depreciation a lost bar creates... and I'm "all in." Can't blame someone a little more down to earth for bailing. I would have except I REALLY like the car.

+1. My 80% charge oft times stops at 9 bars so I know I am closing in on joining the unfortunate club. I don't drive much and charge with my pv system so to sell it is anathema. All I do now is wish I leased.

 

[vrwl]

Fairly significant increase in reported Phoenix temperatures April through June 2012, as opposed to the 30 year average, as well as to last year.

That can't be helping...

You can use the link below to find average, as well as daily high, low, etc., for your own location.


Quote:

Phoenix Area (ThreadEx Station)
Monthly Totals/Averages
Average Temperature (degrees F)
Years: 1981-2010

Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Annual
Average 56.5 59.8 65.3 72.8 82.1 90.9 94.8 93.6 88.4 76.7 64.2 55.5 75.0


Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Annual
2011 55.7 55.2 67.8 74.3 78.8 90.8 95.2 98.3 91.4 78.8 63.5 53.2 75.2

Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Annual
2012 58.7 60.3 65.9 75.1 84.5 93.8 -
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/climate/xmacis.php?wfo=psr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's the same data for the Dallas, Tx area. This may not bode well for us either:

Dallas Area (ThreadEx Station)
Monthly Totals/Averages
Maximum Temperature (degrees F)
Years: 1981-2010

Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Annual
Average 47.1 51.0 58.6 66.5 74.8 82.2 86.3 86.6 78.9 68.3 57.4 48.0 67.1

Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Annual
2011 43.8 50.2 62.2 71.9 73.8 87.6 92.2 94.4 80.7 68.8 58.4 48.3 69.4

Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Annual
2012 51.0 52.9 65.3 71.0 78.4 84.8 86.7 - - - - - 70.0

 

[SanDust]

~4% loss in capacity after 3 years in the AZ heat with laptop batteries. TMS works! I read somewhere that Tesla is aiming for 18 years before the Model S battery degrades 30%... Looks like they'll hit it.

That's just a bogus number. The 18650 cells used in the Roadster are in fact the same cells used in laptops. They have a shelf life of a few years, and putting them in a car won't change that basic fact. You'll see more capacity loss than that in San Diego much less Phoenix.

The newer 18650 cells have a longer shelf life but that's relative to the older 18650 cells not to the much longer lived large format cells used in the Leaf.

All batteries are adversely affected by heat and the TMS can't prevent that since it's not operating 100% of the time. Mitigation is not prevention.

I'd give the Roadster battery four years in AZ and the Model S battery pack maybe six years. Could be less. Not likely to be more. The chances of Tesla Model S battery lasting 18 years in Phoenix are literally like the proverbial snowball's chances in hell.

 

[DaveEV]

~4% loss in capacity after 3 years in the AZ heat with laptop batteries. TMS works! I read somewhere that Tesla is aiming for 18 years before the Model S battery degrades 30%... Looks like they'll hit it.

That's just a bogus number. The 18650 cells used in the Roadster are in fact the same cells used in laptops. They have a shelf life of a few years, and putting them in a car won't change that basic fact. You'll see more capacity loss than that in San Diego much less Phoenix.

The numbers I posted are actual numbers from a Roadster that has been in AZ (near Phoenix) for 3 years. Performance of the pack isn't going to fall off a cliff in a year. Argue all you want, but the data doesn't lie. Roadster Owner Based Study of Battery Pack Capacity Over Time

Properly taken care of laptop batteries will last a long time. I've got a laptop here over 5 years old and still holds a great charge despite being left for long periods of time at 100% charge. With a proper BMS and thermal management there's no reason why the batteries won't last a long, long time.

 

[smkettner]

There is no real reason to manage a laptop battery to keep it going 18 years.

 

[leafwing]

"+1. My 80% charge oft times stops at 9 bars so I know I am closing in on joining the unfortunate club. I don't drive much and charge with my pv system so to sell it is anathema. All I do now is wish I leased."

It has been oscillating between 9 and 10 for a while; so I was expecting the loss which happened this morning when I turned the car on. Battery temp. was at 6 bars.
Now, the capacity of the battery shows 11 bars. I counted the bars about 20 times today which I have never done before,
I really feel bad and I don't know what to do. I purchased the car because a lease was not an option for me, as I always payoff my cars within 2 to 3 years of purchase and enjoy payment-free driving for years before it is time to buy a new car.
My 7.5 K battery check was all five stars. I have never used QC and charge to 80% most of the days.
We still haven't seen the worst of the summer's heat yet.

 

[Volusiano]

Adding Leafwing to the list of 1 capacity bar loss as reported in post above.

1. Azdre & Opossum - April 26, 2012. 16.6K miles/13 months ownership. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/14/2012 @~19K miles)
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/29/2012)
4. TickTock - May 20, 2012. 14K/12 months Phoenix
5. Volusiano - May 20, 2012. 16.5K/12 months. Phoenix
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/1/2012)
7. Leafkabob - May 26, 2012. 9.5K/12 months. Phoenix
8. Cyellen - June 7, 2012. 10.2K/ 14 months. Phoenix
9. RickS - June 10, 2012. 11.3K/13 months. Phoenix
10. Pipcecil - June 17, 2012. 20.2K/12 months. Dallas, Texas
11. Phxsmiley - June 17, 2012. 13.7K/10 months. Phoenix
12. AZknauer - June 17, 2012. 9.2K/13.5 months. Phoenix
13. Myleaf - June 19, 2012. 13.3K/14 months. Phoenix
14. johndoe74 - June 5, 2012. 13.5K/ 9 months. Phoenix
15. Matt Ferris - June 20, 2012. 15K/ 12 months. Dallas, Texas
16. Shrink - June 21, 2012. 10.2K/ 10.5 months. Phoenix (sold that Leaf, replaced w/leased '12 Leaf)
17. ravi100 - June 24, 2012. 13.1K/ 13.5 months. Southlake, Texas (no longer has Leaf)
18. ev4me - approx. June 1, 2012. 7K/ 15 mos. Phoenix (Dropped 2 bars)
19. jspearman - June 28, 2012, ?/10.5 months. Phoenix
20. Leafwing - July 05, 2012, 13.5K/15 months, Plano, TX.

Not reported by owner, but by others:
1. Opossum has reported of two cars in Phoenix that have lost 2 bars.
2. Leafkabob reported a street encounter with a Leaf owner who stated he lost a bar after about a year.
3. Skywagon approx. May, 2012. Phoenix (supposedly no longer has Leaf)

 

[SanDust]

The numbers I posted are actual numbers from a Roadster that has been in AZ (near Phoenix) for 3 years. Performance of the pack isn't going to fall off a cliff in a year. Argue all you want, but the data doesn't lie. Roadster Owner Based Study of Battery Pack Capacity Over Time

I'm not arguing. I'm just telling you that the battery isn't going to last. Tesla says the battery will degrade 30% in five years. That's not in AZ. You can listen to some guy blowing smoke but an 18650 cell is an 18650 cell. Putting it in a Tesla doesn't magically change its properties. Have you ever owned a laptop? How long did the battery last?

As mentioned, laptops don't last that long so a three year battery life is fine. A car is a completely different story. There is a reason that Tesla offers an option of buying a replacement battery at seven years for $12,000. If you live in Phoenix that's one option you definitely want.

This is just a replay of last year when I was trying to explain to folks in AZ that they needed to lease because the Leaf battery was going to degrade more quickly than in would in other places. The response I got then was that the Leaf battery would be fine and didn't need a TMS. Exactly how did this work out? What's funny is that if the Leaf didn't drop the capacity bar I have no doubt that 80% of those reporting one or more lost bars would be claiming that they had lost zero capacity.

The Volt is a good benchmark. As compared to the Roadster, the Volt uses a vastly superior TMS AND uses more heat tolerant large format cells. Its pack may last 12 years in AZ. There simply isn't a chance that the Roadster battery will last anything remotely approaching that amount of time.

 

[DaveEV]

The numbers I posted are actual numbers from a Roadster that has been in AZ (near Phoenix) for 3 years. Performance of the pack isn't going to fall off a cliff in a year. Argue all you want, but the data doesn't lie. Roadster Owner Based Study of Battery Pack Capacity Over Time

I'm not arguing. I'm just telling you that the battery isn't going to last.

Uh, I'm saying that they are going to last, you're saying that they aren't going to last - I'm pretty sure that's what dictionary.com would say is an argument, LOL!

You can stick with your guess that Tesla batteries won't last 5 years - I'll stick with data showing minimal capacity loss after 3 years in Phoenix and many other high mileage Roadsters showing minimal to expected capacity loss after 3-4 years. Unless Tesla is cutting corners with thermal management of the Model S, there's no reason to believe that those batteries won't last longer than the Roadster batteries, especially considering that the warranty on the Model S battery pack is much better than the warranty on the Roadster battery pack.