Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[leafowner234]

I've had related issues and have posted my experience in nissanlies.com

 

[eHelmholtz]

I've had related issues and have posted my experience in nissanlies.com

Good luck! and let us know how it goes. Here's another site by another LEAF owner with problems: Wilting LEAF

 

[Stoaty]

Anyway, I an very certain that if your P3227 updated car is reporting ~20% capacity loss, it will also take ~20% less energy from the wall than a new car to fully recharge from turtle to 100%.

Perhaps you didn't notice that Ed is using a Leaf that has the firmware known to have the potential to be wildly inaccurate. He hasn't bothered to get the P3227 update and then states that the LBC is wildly inaccurate... guess he is only a year or so behind Nissan, but apparently came up with the info independently.

 

[TonyWilliams]

So you evidently need a combination of very high ambient temps, very high kWh use and miles driven per day (and perhaps, as exacerbated in the AVTA test, by extreme cycling of SOC) to degrade a battery to 70% EOL by 60k or 70k miles over a short time period.

Unfortunately, we don't have data over any longer time periods, since, AFAIK, no one has done an accurate range/capacity test of a LEAF with either 4 bar loss or high miles.

The only range test of an 8 capacity bar LEAF, AFAIK, reports that Blue494, with ~38% LBC indicated capacity loss, went 59.3 miles, which we now know (from all the AVTA test data) is only ~22% less miles than the average capacity of the four "new" LEAFs tested by AVTA would have completed (~21 kWh x ~3.6 m/kwh) = ~75.6 miles.

Unfortunately, the wiki continues to use the incorrect 4.0 m/kWh, and so, an incorrect total miles, for a "new" LEAF, in it's summary.

I have to give you credit for being consistently wrong !!!! How exactly are folks able to drive a LEAF 84 - 89 miles in controlled 100kmh (64-65mph on the speedometer) testing ? If that is only 3.6 miles per kWh, then 84 - 89 miles demonstrated means:

84 / 3.6 = 23.3 kWh usable (woo Hoo!!!!... Ed discovered a super LEAF!!!!)

89 / 3.6 = 24.7 kWh usable (bigger than the advertised capacity? Ed, I'd love to hear some of your fishing stories after about ten drinks)

We can demonstrate with every year LEAF ever produced when it's new that it can go 80-something miles at 100kmh ground speed on level, hard surface, no wind with a new condition battery at 70F or above and no climate control. As the government tests have verified, the LEAF battery showed 21.38kWh usable in controlled testing (I doubt you counter that, do you Ed?) which very simply means the LEAF must consume:

85.2 miles / 4 miles per kWh (250 wattHours per mile) = 21.3kWh

Anybody can. Even you, Ed, if you had a new condition battery.

So, either you're right and everybody else is wrong, or.... otherwise. Come on, you can tell us now, after all these years; you're working for an oil company, right?

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Tony
When doing some short tests of about 20 miles or so on an uncrowded freeway at 55, according to the dash, my miles per kwh seem to constantly be a little higher then the chart in your signature. Does the chart assume 2 passengers? I do run my tires at 40psi, but didn't think that was enough to explain the difference. I drive a 13.

Thanks

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony
When doing some short tests of about 20 miles or so on an uncrowded freeway at 55, according to the dash, my miles per kwh seem to constantly be a little higher then the chart in your signature. Does the chart assume 2 passengers? I do run my tires at 40psi, but didn't think that was enough to explain the difference. I drive a 13.

Thanks

Very astute. Yes, the chart was made a bit pessimistic on purpose, and I said so almost three years ago.

You'll note that I keep saying 4 miles per kWh (250 watt hours per mile) for 65mph, but the "public consumption" range chart says less. That was on purpose at the time and just never changed.

 

[TimLee]

I've had related issues and have posted my experience in nissanlies.com

Sorry about your LEAF difficulties.
Nissan has done a huge disservice to EVs by not making the real world range of the LEAF clearly apparent.
Your choice of the LEAF for a 54 mile required round trip was doomed to failure from the start.

Talked with a new salesman who had just passed his LEAF salesman test the other day while doing DCQC.
His primary question: "How valid is the 84 mile range rating?"
I explained based on three years experience driving the LEAF that for most people it is a 40 to 60 mile range vehicle in moderate weather, and a 30 to 45 mile range vehicle in cold 20F weather unless you have the heat pump heater.
That is what needs to be on the salesman test, and included on all Nissan publications and sales documents in bold letters like the warnings on cigarette packs

 

[tcherniaev]

I've had related issues and have posted my experience in nissanlies.com

Sorry about your LEAF difficulties.
Nissan has done a huge disservice to EVs by not making the real world range of the LEAF clearly apparent.
Your choice of the LEAF for a 54 mile required round trip was doomed to failure from the start.

Talked with a new salesman who had just passed his LEAF salesman test the other day while doing DCQC.
His primary question: "How valid is the 84 mile range rating?"
I explained based on three years experience driving the LEAF that for most people it is a 40 to 60 mile range vehicle in moderate weather, and a 30 to 45 mile range vehicle in cold 20F weather unless you have the heat pump heater.
That is what needs to be on the salesman test, and included on all Nissan publications and sales documents in bold letters like the warnings on cigarette packs

I am glad to see someone is finally using real world numbers in their statements. In my experience, after some battery degradation (which is unavoidable, unless you exchange your car for new one every month or so), anyone who lives in cold climates where temperatures stay below freezing most of the winter should not count on trips longer than 40 miles, leaving a bit of a reserve. Those living in moderate climates (e.g. coastal So-Cal) can probably count on 50 miles of consistent range.

Obviously, if you can charge at work then this range can be a one-way trip. If not, or if you are limited to 120v at work, then expectations should be adjusted accordingly. My commute is 27 miles each way, and on some colder days this past winter I could be down to 3 bars after driving only 27 miles (heater on 70F, freeway speeds). Even if I had the heater off I would still struggle to make 54 miles on a single charge (arriving home on VLB warning with range showing --- is not my idea of fun).

I just recommended LEAF to a friend of mine who's commute is 17 miles each way. He is a perfect candidate for LEAF driver -- he can even drive few miles during lunch and still make it home OK. Plus he will be driving right by Nissan's QC on the way home.

 

[mwalsh]

I've had related issues and have posted my experience in nissanlies.com

Sorry about your LEAF difficulties.
Nissan has done a huge disservice to EVs by not making the real world range of the LEAF clearly apparent.
Your choice of the LEAF for a 54 mile required round trip was doomed to failure from the start.

There are too many variables for that. IMO, what Nissan hasn't done adequately is to explain that there are a whole range of variables which could potentially stop you from achieving the advertised range, and in the case of the OP the elevation change during his drive is what's probably going to be killing his range more than any other behavior (though other range-negative behaviors will certainly not help).

Of course, it's also my opinion that the OP has a share of the blame for not understanding this, or at least for not adequately researching any potential pitfalls before purchase. Just asking the salesperon's opinion (a salesperson that may have had near zero practical experience in a LEAF) was/is clearly not enough.

After 3 years for me, winter or summer, even with a fair bit of degradation, 54 miles is still doable very easily, even at full highway speeds, providing it's over relatively flat ground.

 

[TomT]

I think I have about one mile of relatively flat ground around here!

After 3 years for me, winter or summer, even with a fair bit of degradation, 54 miles is still doable very easily, even at full highway speeds, providing it's over relatively flat ground.

 

[TimLee]

I just recommended LEAF to a friend of mine who's commute is 17 miles each way. He is a perfect candidate for LEAF driver -- he can even drive few miles during lunch and still make it home OK. Plus he will be driving right by Nissan's QC on the way home.

You still have to be careful with a 34 mile round trip but less concern in OC.
My downtown round trip is 32 miles by shortest route.
Yes it can be done in a three year old LEAF in 20F but it does require planning.
Need to preheat, then charge back to 100%, take the more steady 40 mph path, and you still might be limiting heat use if you want to maintain margin.
The downtown dealer DCQC does add a fall back.
That may make it workable in a six year old LEAF.

TaylorSFguy has proven what can be done in a LEAF.
But he has made sacrifices and now charges each way.
Most people aren't willing to do that.

 

[TimLee]

IMO, what Nissan hasn't done adequately is to explain that there are a whole range of variables which could potentially stop you from achieving the advertised range ...

I agree.
They should at least redo the circle range graph they published in publications like National Geographic 3 1/2 years ago.
That did not adequately reflect many factors.
If you covered all factors the worst circle would be more like 25 to 30 miles for a six year old LEAF :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

 

[edatoakrun]

="TonyWilliams"

...Unfortunately, the wiki continues to use the incorrect 4.0 m/kWh, and so, an incorrect total miles, for a "new" LEAF, in it's summary.

...How exactly are folks able to drive a LEAF 84 - 89 miles in controlled 100kmh (64-65mph on the speedometer) testing ?...

You still don’t seem top get the point, Tony

All evidence from credible sources that I am aware of indicates that a new 2011-12 LEAF could not drive "84 - 89 miles in controlled 100kmh (64-65mph on the speedometer) testing..." using the controls you claim.

This is primarily because A 2011-12 LEAF, by all reliable reports, will not get 4.0m/kWh at that speed in your stated controlled conditions.

="TonyWilliams"

...So, either you're right and everybody else is wrong...

No Tony.

In fact, if you are right, that the m/kWh efficiencies you state you found by looking at your dash, both the m/kWh on your range chart, or the significantly higher m/kWh efficiency claims you state elsewhere, then every credible test of LEAF efficiency and "new" range published that I am aware of, would have to be wrong.

Of Course, Nissan's own estimates of ranges on the disclosures you signed when you bought both of your LEAFs, would have to have been much too low, and wrong as well.

Everyone can decide for themselves which data sources they believe to be of higher integrity.

The most reliable source, IMO, is the AVT program.

The thread on the AVT battery torture test:

INL L2 vs DC initial capacity test results after 50k mi+

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=14271" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The four pages of the thread have all the study update links.

This is not the final word, as we still await publication of the full study for peer review.

On-topic, page five of the update below has a chart showing variable percentages of total capacity available and variable efficiency, resulting in the final range of the four test LEAFs between 99.9 to 105.8 miles at 45 mph.

So, while is obviously incorrect to state that new LEAFs all have the same range, you can see that in this test they averaged ~4.9 m/kWh for the group.

http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/prog_info/SAEHybridSymposium2014.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The battery and ambient temperatures are not reported there but you can compare the results to the earlier AVT tests, which do have temperature data, which gives efficiency results at three test speeds.

LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

Sublime

From the battery (from the wall):
45mph = 4.85mi/kWh (3.94mi/kWh)
60mph = 3.70mi/kWh (3.04mi/kWh)
70mph = 2.92mi/kWh (2.48mi/kWh)

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=13265" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For anyone trying to range test a LEAF's range and efficiency against the AVT standards, new or used (remember, a "new" 2013-14 should be expected to have higher efficiency and longer range than a "new" 2011-12) I do not suggest you try to drive on a freeway until your LBC stops you.

This is, IMO, stupid, dangerous, and probably illegal in most states.

 

[TonyWilliams]

="TonyWilliams"

...Unfortunately, the wiki continues to use the incorrect 4.0 m/kWh, and so, an incorrect total miles, for a "new" LEAF, in it's summary.

...How exactly are folks able to drive a LEAF 84 - 89 miles in controlled 100kmh (64-65mph on the speedometer) testing ?...

You still don’t seem top get the point, Tony

First, let me congratulate you on one of your more measured responses.

All evidence from credible sources that I am aware of indicates that a new 2011-12 LEAF could not drive "84 - 89 miles in controlled 100kmh (64-65mph on the speedometer) testing..." using the controls you claim.

I guess myself and the many other folks who physically have done this with the controls I have specified find your observation wrong. It's ok to be wrong, and you most definitely are wrong here.

Everyone can decide for themselves which data sources they believe to be of higher integrity.

That sounds a bit like global warming deniers; it's a belief and not a fact or there are two sides instead of the facts.

four test LEAFs between 99.9 to 105.8 miles at 45 mph. So, while is obviously incorrect to state that new LEAFs all have the same range, you can see that in this test they averaged ~4.9 m/kWh for the group.

I'm going to guess that "4.9" number above is your calculation based on your belief on how much usable energy the battery has. Why don't you first answer if the battery has 21.384kWh useable when new at room temperature or some other amount.

Yes, individual LEAFs will absolutely have slightly different ranges, just like cars, boats, planes, etc.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Tony,

Besides incidental posts here, are there any figures out there as to the spread in car ranges (or more specifically GIDs)? It seems like it might by 10% or more high to low.

Thanks

 

[highend]

is this normal that my leaf (located in Poland) loses around 0.02 AHr daily (showed using Leaf Spy Pro).
P3227 update was done in middle of March (capacity got up, but quicly went down).
Climate is not hot, just normal.. (between 10-20 degrees celcius). And a month ago capacity was AHr=61.5
now AHr =59.98, so about 1.5Ahr in not even warm month. Leaf is two years old.

 

[edatoakrun]

...

four test LEAFs between 99.9 to 105.8 miles at 45 mph. So, while is obviously incorrect to state that new LEAFs all have the same range, you can see that in this test they averaged ~4.9 m/kWh for the group.

I'm going to guess that "4.9" number above is your calculation based on your belief on how much usable energy the battery has. Why don't you first answer if the battery has 21.384kWh useable when new at room temperature or some other amount...

Though we don't know if the AVT tests were at precisely "room temperature"...

The BOS available battery capacities, miles driven, and more data, for each of the four test LEAFs was at the link right below the quote you copied-and-pasted. One of the four's LBC did allow ~21.4 kWh, and the other three less, in this single discharge test.

We also know from other AVT tests that the available capacity of the same pack does not seem to be a constant, even when battery temperature during charging is controlled.

http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/fact2011nissanleaf.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So it is incorrect to state that there is one "usable" battery capacity for any single pack, and obviously absurd to state a single value for all packs, to the single watt hour, such as "21.384kWh".

The maximum available battery capacity is simply whatever kWh your LBC let you use (the variable percentage of your total battery capacity) before it stopped your LEAF in a "100%" charge-to-dead trip.

To repeat:

edatoakrun:

...On-topic, page five of the update below has a chart showing variable percentages of total capacity available and variable efficiency, resulting in the final range of the four test LEAFs between 99.9 to 105.8 miles at 45 mph.

So, while is obviously incorrect to state that new LEAFs all have the same range, you can see that in this test they averaged ~4.9 m/kWh for the group.

http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/prog_info/SAEHybridSymposium2014.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...

In a larger sample, you would expect to see a wider range of "new" available capacities.

But, IMO, LEAFs with similar "break-in" miles and tires will likely see close to the same changes in m/kWh after similar miles driven, kWh throughput, and time.

Edatoakrun:
...All evidence from credible sources that I am aware of indicates that a new 2011-12 LEAF could not drive "84 - 89 miles in controlled 100kmh (64-65mph on the speedometer) testing..." using the controls you claim...

="TonyWilliams"
...I guess myself and the many other folks who physically have done this with the controls I have specified find your observation wrong...

You, and those "many other folks" (whoever they are) who you state reproduced your test results, are free to believe whatever you like Tony.

I'm just pointing out that now that we have efficiency and range test data from multiple sources, your beliefs seem to be in conflict with the sources I would consider most likely to be competent.

 

[TonyWilliams]

...

four test LEAFs between 99.9 to 105.8 miles at 45 mph. So, while is obviously incorrect to state that new LEAFs all have the same range, you can see that in this test they averaged ~4.9 m/kWh for the group.

I'm going to guess that "4.9" number above is your calculation based on your belief on how much usable energy the battery has. Why don't you first answer if the battery has 21.384kWh useable when new at room temperature or some other amount...

Though we don't know if the AVT tests were at precisely "room temperature"...

The BOS available battery capacities, miles driven, and more data, for each of the four test LEAFs was at the link right below the quote you copied-and-pasted. One of the four's LBC did allow ~21.4 kWh, and the other three less, in this single discharge test.

Ok, we are getting somewhere. There's data that you and I both "believe" in (that I generally refer to as "facts").

So, the next simple question is either I'm a "big fat liar" and faking the tests that myself and others have done and documented over years now on this forum, or...

...the Nissan LEAF goes 85.2 miles (plus or minus a few, based on our tests) divided by 21.4kWh equals (drum roll) 4 miles per kWh.

Obviously, if the heater or air conditioner were on, then the same test might get, oh say, 3.6 miles per kWh.

I'll let the reader decide. I suspect your reputation here might skew the "belief" against your cause to prove me wrong.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony,

Besides incidental posts here, are there any figures out there as to the spread in car ranges (or more specifically GIDs)? It seems like it might by 10% or more high to low.

Thanks

We had a meeting at Google headquarters with Nissan and they explained how difficult it was to calculate GIDs. Yes, it can and does vary, but it's still one of the best tools to determine battery capacity and range.

 

[mksE55]

The BOS available battery capacities, miles driven, and more data, for each of the four test LEAFs was at the link right below the quote you copied-and-pasted. One of the four's LBC did allow ~21.4 kWh, and the other three less, in this single discharge test.

Ok, we are getting somewhere. There's data that you and I both "believe" in (that I generally refer to as "facts").

So, the next simple question is either I'm a "big fat liar" and faking the tests that myself and others have done and documented over years now on this forum, or...

...the Nissan LEAF goes 85.2 miles (plus or minus a few, based on our tests) divided by 21.4kWh equals (drum roll) 4 miles per kWh.

Obviously, if the heater or air conditioner were on, then the same test might get, oh say, 3.6 miles per kWh.

I'll let the reader decide. I suspect your reputation here might skew the "belief" against your cause to prove me wrong.

LOL yet he will continue to not understand.