Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[TomT]

+1

I see a real PR nightmare coming for Nissan as all the hot weather cars hit the 20-30K mile mark. We were a statistical drop in the bucket last year when we initiated our buyback, but now Nissan has a serious number of cars on the road.

 

[mksE55]

[/quote]
I see a real PR nightmare coming for Nissan as all the hot weather cars hit the 20-30K mile mark. We were a statistical drop in the bucket last year when we initiated our buyback, but now Nissan has a serious number of cars on the road. Unless they are taking care of their customers, all these warranties and tweaks are worthless. If drivers can barely squeeze out their commute, but haven't fallen past the magic 9-bar number, then they will have very vocal, unhappy customers.

Also, why can't they figure out the GOM? Rent any other EV for a week and figure it out. The dead Leaf I helped push last week was the casualty of a new driver not understanding the ridiculous overconfidence of the GOM.

Good luck in your efforts to have them take your car back.[/quote]


thanks , I agree this is not what Nissan needs is all the early supporters who took on faith their car would be close to the 80% in 5 yrs and 70% in 10yr BS. this car is not even going to make 70% in 2 yrs and that is official end of battery life but yet they want you to drive past 30% to in act the warranty. this will be my last Nissan if this how I am treated. I have owned 4 previous Nissan cars, I guess I was lucky, I didnt have any problems now they are the only problem car I drive. I will require a new battery in the next few months. 2nd bar loss was April so I guess 3 months from now it will be 4 bars. nice and gradual uh Nissan.

 

[Leafer77]

I lost my first bar. I expected some degradation in capacity, so my driving habits have not been impacted. I did report this issue to the Nissan dealer and was told this is expected.

Not sure how to add this to the spreadsheet:

Car Details:

Silver Nissan Leaf 2011
Date car purchased: 5/31/2011
Date bar disappeared: 8/24/2012
Mile's when bar disappeared: 21,085

Environment:

- San Diego Coastal and Inland climate (60's - 90's).

Car Charging info:

- 1 month of 100% charging via L2, thereafter 80% L2.
- (5/31 - 2/1) Nightly charge, except weekends where it typically charged just once for the entire weekend.
- (2/2 - Present) Charge twice a day 80% L2. Night and when I arrive to work.
- Garaged at home and uncovered at work.

MISC Info:

- Turtled once, but made it to an outlet.
- Mostly highway driving 55mph - 65mph.
- 4.5 KWH
- Manufactured Date: 4/11

Lost my second bar: 7/8/2013.
Mileage: 36,360
Still performing a L2 charge twice a day 80% L2. Night and when I arrive to work.

 

[mwalsh]

I lost my first bar. I expected some degradation in capacity, so my driving habits have not been impacted. I did report this issue to the Nissan dealer and was told this is expected.

Not sure how to add this to the spreadsheet:

Car Details:

Silver Nissan Leaf 2011
Date car purchased: 5/31/2011
Date bar disappeared: 8/24/2012
Mile's when bar disappeared: 21,085

Lost my second bar: 7/8/2013.

If I can somewhat mirror your experience (but at higher mileage, obviously, since I'm already over 31k) and loose my second bar in summer next year. Then loose the third one the year after (fingers and toes crossed), that would put me in line for pack refurbishment just prior to the pack warranty expiring. It would also be, I suppose, about where I would have expected to be at 4.5-5 years of ownership (actually 5+ years of ownership, but who's counting).

I guess the bigger question is if I'll be able to stand the car by then. I'm down to just north of 70 miles range driving somewhat carefully now, after just loosing bar one. 70% of usable capacity to me would be 69 miles @ 4.7m/kWh. The loss of two more bars that I routinely manage 5 miles each from would probably mean a full-charge range of around 62 miles, maybe 65 miles if I were to slow down below 65mph and/or get my efficiency up a bit more. And that's probably too close for comfort without mid-point charging.

I don't quite know what to make of it all, but something just doesn't seem right. I still gotta believe software is to blame.

 

[smkettner]

Lost my second bar: 7/8/2013.
Mileage: 36,360

I am running about parallel. Do you expect to use the battery capacity warranty before 60,000 miles? I do.
I had no idea when I purchased two years ago that the capacity would drop so fast in a mostly mild climate.

 

[Stanton]

If I can somewhat mirror your experience (but at higher mileage, obviously, since I'm already over 31k) and loose my second bar in summer next year. Then loose the third one the year after (fingers and toes crossed), that would put me in line for pack refurbishment just prior to the pack warranty expiring. It would also be, I suppose, about where I would have expected to be at 4.5-5 years of ownership (actually 5+ years of ownership, but who's counting).

I'm thinking the same thing in what I expect to be somewhat common among hot weather owners (like myself). I'm actually "breathing easier" since Nissan came out with the 5 yr/ 60k battery pack supplemental warranty and am grateful to many on this forum for basically forcing Nissan's hand on this; it will help us early adopters which has to be better for Nissan (and their EV program) in the long run.

 

[dhanson865]

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13549" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; showed a 4 bar loss that wasn't in the wiki so I took a stab at updating the list.

I didn't see a mention of the mileage on that thread so I left that field blank.

I suppose it should be added into the 3 bar loss section with some blank fields as well?

edit, found http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=12968" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; showing the 3rd bar loss on May 23.

 

[scottf200]

Looks like Nissan battery replacements have started:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=309418#p309418" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

<snip>
He said that currently there are 8 Leafs that are getting new batteries in the Phx. area, 2 @ my dealership..
<snip>

 

[scottf200]

Looks like Nissan battery replacements have started:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=309418#p309418" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

<snip>
He said that currently there are 8 Leafs that are getting new batteries in the Phx. area, 2 @ my dealership..
<snip>

I'm a little surprise there is not more buzz about this. Aren't people happy that they are standing behind their word and replacing batteries now? I thought that was a positive goal / outcome.

 

[surfingslovak]

I'm a little surprise there is not more buzz about this. Aren't people happy that they are standing behind their word and replacing batteries now? I thought that was a positive goal / outcome.

Yes, very good to see, noticed that too. Personally, I will be ready to celebrate once the first pack replacement has been installed, a battery purchase price was announced, and mileage tiers for the battery lease are available. That said, I'm grateful that there has been so much progress over the last six months or so. These changes cannot come quickly enough.

 

[phxsmiley]

I lost my fourth battery capacity bar yesterday 7/12/13, at 28,700 miles. My last 100% charge (this morning) was at 181 Gids and 392 volts.

Altogether it took less than 2 years to get to this state, which, if typical for Phoenix-area Leafs, is an interesting situation for those with a two-year lease.

Already had an appointment in a week to get the software update done, of course we'll be discussing the battery replacement also. I am really glad that Nissan is doing this replacement, it's the right thing to do and it makes the car much more useful again. I was hoping this would happen later in the summer, and get this in the fall, so I could enjoy a new battery at near-full capacity for a while longer.

I updated the Wiki page.

 

[phxsmiley]

One thing that's interesting is that they don't seem to adjust the threshold for LBW when the capacity of the pack goes down. My 100% charge is at 181 Gids, but my LBW warning comes around 50 Gids. I'm sure this is the primary reason why people report that although the battery may be down by 33.75% officially (as the Wiki states), the actual range loss (before you stress out at LBW) is much higher, as you only have about 131 GIDs total to work with.

 

[GregH]

One thing that's interesting is that they don't seem to adjust the threshold for LBW when the capacity of the pack goes down. My 100% charge is at 181 Gids, but my LBW warning comes around 50 Gids. I'm sure this is the primary reason why people report that although the battery may be down by 33.75% officially (as the Wiki states), the actual range loss (before you stress out at LBW) is much higher, as you only have about 131 GIDs total to work with.

I would think LBW would be a hohum commonplace occurrence if I only had 181 Gids to start with! I wouldn't stress till VLBW
Do you have access to an Android/ELM setup with the new software or LeafDD? Would be curious to know the Ah capacity and Health values..

 

[surfingslovak]

One thing that's interesting is that they don't seem to adjust the threshold for LBW when the capacity of the pack goes down. My 100% charge is at 181 Gids, but my LBW warning comes around 50 Gids. I'm sure this is the primary reason why people report that although the battery may be down by 33.75% officially (as the Wiki states), the actual range loss (before you stress out at LBW) is much higher, as you only have about 131 GIDs total to work with.

I would think LBW would be a hohum commonplace occurrence if I only had 181 Gids to start with! I wouldn't stress till VLBW
Do you have access to an Android/ELM setup with the new software or LeafDD? Would be curious to know the Ah capacity and Health values..

That's a good point, and you would be surprised to see how many owners try to avoid the bottom bar on the battery gauge. This affected owners in Phoenix disproportionately. There seemed to be another problem where Gids and the state of charge would decline much slower than expected below LBW. Since most owners were avoiding low SOC, this further compunded battery degradation and diminished the usable range of the vehicle. Personally, I believe that better instrumentation and software could significanlty improve owner experience and the useful range of the vehicle. The SOC gauge in percent and improved GOM is a good step forward, but more could be done.

 

[arnolddeleon]

... snip ...
That's a good point, and you would be surprised to see how many owners try to avoid the bottom bar on the battery gauge. This affected owners in Phoenix disproportionately. There seemed to be another problem where Gids and the state of charge would decline much slower than expected below LBW. Since most owners were avoiding low SOC, this further compunded battery degradation and diminished the usable range of the vehicle. Personally, I believe that better instrumentation and software could significanlty improve owner experience and the useful range of the vehicle. The SOC gauge in percent and improved GOM is a good step forward, but more could be done.

I think you are right on, until a couple of days ago I didn't have any additional SOC meters in the LEAF. I had known that there was significant energy down there. I know people with the WattsLeft meters that have raved about the difference it makes but I was *shocked* how much energy there is even with only one bar left.

Oh, the reason I'm posting on the thread. We lost the first capacity bar on a 2011 after about 21,700 miles. The car is garaged in Cupertino, CA and usually charged to 80% with and end of time charge (in the morning). If we know that the car is going to be driven a significant amount we would finish charging to 100% by resuming charging.

arnold

 

[surfingslovak]

Sorry to hear Arnold! Thanks for taking the time to share the data and your experience with the LEAF.

 

[DaveEV]

I was hoping this would happen later in the summer, and get this in the fall, so I could enjoy a new battery at near-full capacity for a while longer.

You could always prolong the replacement as long as the car remains usable for you. No need to go and get it replaced straight away.

We lost the first capacity bar on a 2011 after about 21,700 miles. The car is garaged in Cupertino, CA and usually charged to 80% with and end of time charge (in the morning). If we know that the car is going to be driven a significant amount we would finish charging to 100% by resuming charging.

Wow, seems soon to lose a bar given your good habits and nice climate.

 

[gbarry42]

I'm a little surprise there is not more buzz about this. Aren't people happy that they are standing behind their word and replacing batteries now?

Well, unless there's some news I missed, the battery guarantee is still only to keep it above 70%. If your BEV range started dropping and GM sent you a letter saying they promised to keep you at 25 miles or better, you wouldn't exactly be jumping for joy. Now, maybe Nissan has chosen to Do The Right Thing for the folks in Phoenix, and provide new full-capacity batteries, but I think I'll wait until we see this actually happen. If it does, I think it will be a first for this automaker.

 

[smkettner]

One thing that's interesting is that they don't seem to adjust the threshold for LBW when the capacity of the pack goes down. My 100% charge is at 181 Gids, but my LBW warning comes around 50 Gids. I'm sure this is the primary reason why people report that although the battery may be down by 33.75% officially (as the Wiki states), the actual range loss (before you stress out at LBW) is much higher, as you only have about 131 GIDs total to work with.

Yes it would seem Nissan is overly concerned about towing costs such that too much of the real range is hidden.
Nissan is playing us for dumb and ruining the range reputation of the LEAF.
JMHO

 

[dgpcolorado]

Yes it would seem Nissan is overly concerned about towing costs such that too much of the real range is hidden.
Nissan is playing us for dumb and ruining the range reputation of the LEAF.
JMHO

I disagree. Towing costs aside, having LEAFs out of charge on the side of the road would be worse for the range reputation and driver experience than having some reserve below LBW. And I'm inclined to believe that Nissan really didn't expect four bar losers in two to three years even in Phoenix, although perhaps I am naive.

After VLBW the cell voltages tend to drop quickly (the "knee" in the curve). The 24 Gid between LBW and VLBW seems like a reasonable reserve to me. But it does loom larger when a 100% charge gives only 181 Gid! That's somewhat more than a 30% loss, BTW. So, yes, if your battery is at 65% or so and LBW is at ~17%, that reserve seems larger. But is the setting of LBW at 49 Gid unwise? I think not.