Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[Stoaty]

I wouldn't say 'nothing is wrong' just yet. Ask me what I think in a year. My LEAF is in an "ideal" normal environment (S.F. Bay Area) and the range is down about 10% with a low 10,400 miles in 16 months. This is higher than I expected, and I pretty much baby the battery. The loss has to slow down, or I'll consider the LEAF a "cold (but not freezing) weather only car".

Range based on driving the same route in the same conditions to turtle, or by some other measurement? I am down 9% in Gids after 15 months, but the (very rough) range test I did doesn't seem to show much difference from 6 months ago. I don't think Gids are as accurate as I once thought. I am getting a lot more miles per Gid at the very low end than elsewhere. The instrumentation and/or software needs improvement to help judge more accurately how much capacity we are losing.

 

[DaveEV]

I wouldn't say 'nothing is wrong' just yet. Ask me what I think in a year. My LEAF is in an "ideal" normal environment (S.F. Bay Area) and the range is down about 10% with a low 10,400 miles in 16 months. This is higher than I expected, and I pretty much baby the battery. The loss has to slow down, or I'll consider the LEAF a "cold (but not freezing) weather only car".

From the charts that TickTock posted earlier, 10% after that period of time doesn't seem out of line. Certainly within the margin of error. Would have been nice if Nissan had told us up front that degradation would be fastest after the first year (really the first 6 months) - that certainly doesn't meet my definition of "gradual".

If the slopes in TickTock's charts hold up, you should see less than half the loss after the 2nd year compared to the first.

 

[TickTock]

I think the buy backs indicate the US battery will not be any different in chemistry that has additional heat tolerance.

True. I asked about the new battery and was told it is essentially the same chemistry and we shouldn't expect any change in the heat tolerance. The cost reductions Ghosn spoke of come primarily from manufacturing techniques.

 

[TickTock]

The 4th KPHO CBS5 news story has been posted...

http://www.kpho.com/video?clipId=7772224&autostart=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I hope she's wrong about Nissan considering pulling the Leaf from Phoenix. It is a GREAT car ...just not as great as we were let on. Given proper disclosure I think it is still a great choice for many Phoenix valley residents. In the end the cost of a battery replacement may still be less then what we are saving in gas (I will have saved >$7000 by the time I think I will need to replace mine).

 

[opossum]

Given proper disclosure I think it is still a great choice for many Phoenix valley residents.

So... Nissan served Kool-Aid at your meeting, eh? :lol:

Seriously though, I'll be very interested to see how this all plays out. I don't think Leafs in the desert will survive 3 summers (and the corresponding 2.5 years), no matter how the cars are used/treated. If someone wants to drop lots of coin on the car and only needs a 20-mile range, I guess it still may be a viable option.

 

[grommet]

Range based on driving the same route in the same conditions to turtle, or by some other measurement? I am down 9% in Gids after 15 months, but the (very rough) range test I did doesn't seem to show much difference from 6 months ago.

I'm GID meter free, though I guess it would be amusing to have a reading. (I didn't do a "new" reading, so I have nothing to compare it to.) Anyway, all real world route based in as similar conditions as possible.

 

[DesertDenizen]

Given proper disclosure I think it is still a great choice for many Phoenix valley residents.

So... Nissan served Kool-Aid at your meeting, eh? :lol:

Seriously though, I'll be very interested to see how this all plays out. I don't think Leafs in the desert will survive 3 summers (and the corresponding 2.5 years), no matter how the cars are used/treated. If someone wants to drop lots of coin on the car and only needs a 20-mile range, I guess it still may be a viable option.

I agree. I babied my battery pack and lost a bar at 6,881 miles. I wonder if all my effort was for naught, or if I will delay my loss of a second bar by continuing my practices.

 

[jspearman]

I think the buy backs indicate the US battery will not be any different in chemistry that has additional heat tolerance.

True. I asked about the new battery and was told it is essentially the same chemistry and we shouldn't expect any change in the heat tolerance. The cost reductions Ghosn spoke of come primarily from manufacturing techniques.

Well, that's the final piece of the puzzle I had been waiting to hear, and thank you for sharing this info. I was holding out a tiny bit of hope that either a new chemistry or a TMS would arrive to save the day, but it looks like the Leaf will not serve our needs by the end of next summer.

 

[TonyWilliams]

An anonymous LEAF Owner in San Diego (too closely associated with the industry to identify) has reported 1 bar loss at 29,000 miles.

San Diego, CA

No other data.

 

[TickTock]

Given proper disclosure I think it is still a great choice for many Phoenix valley residents.

So... Nissan served Kool-Aid at your meeting, eh? :lol:

:lol: I admit, I drank the Kool-Aid before I even got my Leaf. My enthusiams has been dampened, for sure, but I am still a fan.

 

[smkettner]

Kool-Aid? IIRC the only temperature warning was to not allow the car to be exposed to 120+ for 24 hours :|

 

[MrIanB]

When they say Nissan will be doing a buy back due to lemon law, what exactly is Nissan paying?

Are they paying for the months left on a lease?

Are they giving any down payment money on that same lease back?

What are they paying if the car is being purchased? The payoff? What happens if there is any equity or inequity for those that are purchasing?

Thanks,

Ian B

 

[TonyWilliams]

Are they giving any down payment money on that same lease back?

Another example why money down on a lease might not be a good idea.

 

[padamson1]

I wouldn't say 'nothing is wrong' just yet. Ask me what I think in a year. My LEAF is in an "ideal" normal environment (S.F. Bay Area) and the range is down about 10% with a low 10,400 miles in 16 months. This is higher than I expected, and I pretty much baby the battery. The loss has to slow down, or I'll consider the LEAF a "cold (but not freezing) weather only car".

Wow that is a surprise. I too live in the "ideal" environment and have no measurable range loss after 10,183 miles in 11months. So either:

1. One of can't accurately measure range. My test is a drive that I have to do a couple times a month to get to a soccer field on the other side of town. It is an 11-bar drive from 100%, mixed highway and city with some serious hills so it's only 78miles. The night before those games I do a timer manual override charge to get 100% with balancing. I get down to a single bar a few miles short of my house (within a mile of a certain landmark) every time, last time was the first one in a while that I actually got past the landmark. I'm thinking my degree of error is around +/-5%, but if I got down to a single bar more than 7miles from my house I'd definitely notice since I have a steep climb to my house. The firmware upgrade would definitely skew this test, but these games have all been post upgrade, which I did 4mos after purchase.
2. My charge regimen is better for my battery than yours. I do 80% nightly and go to 100% mid-day top-off when I have to go someplace across town at least twice a week.
3. Portland, OR is more "ideal" than the SF Bay area.

It's probably a combination of #1 & #2. However given the number of friends moving up from the Bay area recently, I am inclined to believe it's actually #3.;-)

 

[Stoaty]

I have done more work on the Wiki battery capacity loss sub-section:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Nissan.27s_Responses_and_Actions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is hard to keep up with all the developments happening recently, and I still haven't got a full section on the Phoenix range test (but there is a link to the thread). I would suggest that anyone who wants an overview, or hasn't been keeping up with the long threads start by reading the whole battery capacity loss section to stay up-to-date.

As always, feel free to suggest changes, additions, etc. or make the changes yourself.

 

[Volusiano]

When they say Nissan will be doing a buy back due to lemon law, what exactly is Nissan paying?

Are they paying for the months left on a lease?

Are they giving any down payment money on that same lease back?

What are they paying if the car is being purchased? The payoff? What happens if there is any equity or inequity for those that are purchasing?

Thanks,

Ian B

I hear it's pro-rated based on the mileage of your first complaint registered with Nissan. I'm assuming that this is the mileage you would have reported to them when you started losing your first bar. I don't know how the pro-rated calculation works, though.

 

[MrIanB]

When they say Nissan will be doing a buy back due to lemon law, what exactly is Nissan paying?

Are they paying for the months left on a lease?

Are they giving any down payment money on that same lease back?

What are they paying if the car is being purchased? The payoff? What happens if there is any equity or inequity for those that are purchasing?

Thanks,

Ian B

I hear it's pro-rated based on the mileage of your first complaint registered with Nissan. I'm assuming that this is the mileage you would have reported to them when you started losing your first bar. I don't know how the pro-rated calculation works, though.

Volusiano;

If that is the case of prorating based on your mileage, the customer could end up short of the payoff on a purchase and a lease. The customer would be liable for that balance, I guess??? Not a pretty sight.

Thanks for the info, and thank God I only lease cars with 0 down always.

Ian B

 

[Nubo]

3. Portland, OR is more "ideal" than the SF Bay area.

It's probably a combination of #1 & #2. However given the number of friends moving up from the Bay area recently, I am inclined to believe it's actually #3.;-)

The "SF Bay area" has a rather wide range of climates. I can't find a convenient temperature map but you can get an idea from the solar radiation map -- keeping in mind the significant temperature moderation effect of the prevailing ocean breezes near the open ocean. I find that people in the blue-to-yellow zone on this map (south of Golden Gate Bridge) tend to think of the "Bay Area" as strictly the blue-to-yellow zone, south of the Golden Gate bridge.

 

[phxsmiley]

Despite the battery capacity loss, I have enjoyed driving my Leaf. Rather than trading it in for Lemon-law value, I'd really like another option.

Assuming that they will now disclose the range degredation for different geographical regions going forward, I think they could make concessions that would be limited to the 2011-2012 model year.

One concession: I think I would be satisfied with a replacement battery that happened for those of us in the 2011-2012 model year, once we reach a certain level of capacity loss, perhaps when the Leaf reached below something like 70% capacity, if it happened before the 5th year. The difficulty with this is determining the actual real battery capacity, since the Leaf instrumentation doesn't seem to very accurately indicate this.

Another concession: a guaranteed trade-in value at a Nissan dealer that wouldn't be judged based on battery capacity. For this option, I could sell it now or wait until the battery was down to an unusable condition, however I define that based on my actual usage. Looking at TickTock's chart, that could be when my car is 3-4 years old.

 

[theaveng]

Let's see how long it takes you to spot the deceit in this Leaf ad... (SPOILER - Related to the amount of SOC remaining.)

I don't see it?