Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[cwerdna]

Hello All:
I just lost another capacity bar over the long weekend I

Call and report battery capacity loss to Nissan: 877-NO-GAS-EV (1-877-664-2738).

And report the capacity loss to the other bodies at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9694" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

 

[Stoaty]

Hello All:
I just lost another capacity bar over the long weekend I

Call and report battery capacity loss to Nissan: 877-NO-GAS-EV (1-877-664-2738).

Agreed. You are getting way ahead of yourself. First step is to report to Nissan (and then let us know your case number for the Wiki). Wiki updated with your second bar loss.

 

[tokenride]

Hello All:
I just lost another capacity bar over the long weekend I

Call and report battery capacity loss to Nissan: 877-NO-GAS-EV (1-877-664-2738).

Agreed. You are getting way ahead of yourself. First step is to report to Nissan (and then let us know your case number for the Wiki). Wiki updated with your second bar loss.

I feel that telling Nissan at this point right now is kind of pointless..will it hurt my case if I dont. Will it help my case if I do?

 

[KJD]

I feel that telling Nissan at this point right now is kind of pointless..will it hurt my case if I dont. Will it help my case if I do?

You really should have reported this problem when you lost the first capacity bar.
How do you expect Nissan to do anything to fix the problem if you do not report the problem to them?

 

[cwerdna]

I feel that telling Nissan at this point right now is kind of pointless..will it hurt my case if I dont. Will it help my case if I do?

You really should have reported this problem when you lost the first capacity bar.
How do you expect Nissan to do anything to fix the problem if you do not report the problem to them?

Agreed. Even though this is a Toyota guy speaking (namely, the former Prius Product Manager), http://priuschat.com/threads/entune-class-action-suit-anyone.111550/#post-1589545" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; should give tokenride and possibly others reasons why it is a good idea to report it to Nissan.

I would think that enough reports should cause an issue to surface to their internal top 10 (or whatever number they use) list and hopefully be actioned upon, eventually.

When I was doing software testing, our dev team would focus on the crashing bugs that occurred most frequently, which came via an automated reporting system.

 

[tokenride]

I feel that telling Nissan at this point right now is kind of pointless..will it hurt my case if I dont. Will it help my case if I do?

You really should have reported this problem when you lost the first capacity bar.
How do you expect Nissan to do anything to fix the problem if you do not report the problem to them?

Agreed. Even though this is a Toyota guy speaking (namely, the former Prius Product Manager), http://priuschat.com/threads/entune-class-action-suit-anyone.111550/#post-1589545" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; should give tokenride and possibly others reasons why it is a good idea to report it to Nissan.

I would think that enough reports should cause an issue to surface to their internal top 10 (or whatever number they use) list and hopefully be actioned upon, eventually.

When I was doing software testing, our dev team would focus on the crashing bugs that occurred most frequently, which came via an automated reporting system.

Calling them tomorrow..also driving to nearest dealership to see if they can run a diagnostic with out an appointment. I will post the case number as soon as I have it.

 

[cwerdna]

Calling them tomorrow..also driving to nearest dealership to see if they can run a diagnostic with out an appointment. I will post the case number as soon as I have it.

I wouldn't get your hopes up about the dealer telling you anything useful. They'll likely tell you it's "normal". :roll:

 

[smkettner]

If my memory serves me correctly, I was clearly under the impression that the 8yr / 100,000 mile warranty gauranteed that it would cover capacity as well.
Is that the impression most of you got?

NO

 

[tokenride]

Calling them tomorrow..also driving to nearest dealership to see if they can run a diagnostic with out an appointment. I will post the case number as soon as I have it.

I wouldn't get your hopes up about the dealer telling you anything useful. They'll likely tell you it's "normal". :roll:

Agreed, this is more to bump up the stats.... :|

I'll try my best not to go ape $h*t on them....

 

[gsleaf]

Hmm

 

[DaveEV]

ya, pretty much. i have seen LBW at 50 and 51 a few times but usually 49

This is apparently by design. AFAIK Nissan begins to manage available power at 4 kWh remaining, which translates to the low battery warning at the transition between 49 and 50 Gids (50 x 80Wh = 4kWh). The regimen supposedly tightens at 2 kWh, and the very low battery warning appears at the transition between 24 and 25 Gids (25 x 80Wh = 2kWh).

Due to this design philosophy, we don't expect any of these thresholds to change. They represent fixed energy reserves, not SOC percentages. For what it's worth, my car has lost about 10% capacity, yet the Gid count at both the LBW and VLBW has not changed, and remained very predictable.

Hmm, so the GID count is the same at LBW, but who's to say that the GID reading is accurate?

Have you considered adjusting your reverse-range-chart to reflect the fixed nature of LBW/VLBW? FWIW - my last range test down to VLBW seemed to reflect the fact that the LBW point should have had more capacity. (I'm going to tweak my own copy to see what happens)

Lithium ion battery empty warning lightIn the event that your battery becomes critically low (2kWh), power limitation mode will automatically minimize your energy consumption and reduce your speed to help you get to a charging dock.

That wording seems to imply that limited power, aka turtle, occurs w/2kWh remaining. Or am I reading that wrong and they mean that the 2kWh warning = VLBW and limited power, aka turtle, will kick in as needed.

When we test the Phoenix car with 4 lost capacity bars, I'll let you know. I believe it will still come on at 49 Gid for LBW.

We've already seen how some cars will display 2 fuel bars with LBW. Check out my range chart with 85% capacity.

Thanks for working to collect this data, Tony.

 

[opossum]

A guy can only bang his head against the wall so many times while trying to get through to Nissan, so we reached out to just a few others tonight...

Nissan Arbitration
Arizona Better Business Bureau
Lawyers
Senator John Kyl
Senator John McCain
Congressman Ben Quayle
Arizona Attorney General
Environmental Protection Agency
NHTSA, Office of Defects Investigation
Consumer Reports
Federal Trade Commission (server maintenance... will complete the form tomorrow)
Center for Auto Safety
J.D. Power and Associates
Edmunds.com
Cars.com
NADAguides
Kelley Blue Book
Mitt Romney Campaign

Help! Give me more people to complain to! The more I can annoy Nissan and spread the word, the better!

 

[cwerdna]

^^^^
You looking for other automotive press? There are publications/sites/blogs like Car and Driver, Road and Track, Motortrend, http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, http://jalopnik.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://green.autoblog.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, for instance. http://www.motorweek.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I think still does a brief automotive news segment each ep.

 

[planet4ever]

I believe the manual went online even before the car was available for sale in the US. Not sure about the warranty booklet. Hopefully the people who participated in threads like http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1897&start=10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; can chime in on when the warranty information booklet became available.

I downloaded a copy of the warranty booklet from the Nissan site on Nov 10, 2010. I still have that copy, and it specifically says:

The Lithium-ion battery (EV battery), like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual capacity loss with time and use. Loss of battery capacity due to or resulting from gradual capacity loss is NOT covered under this warranty.

My (occasionally faulty) memory is that I discussed that statement somewhere on this board shortly after getting and reading that booklet. I can't find that now, but here is something I wrote over a year ago, suggesting that many people misunderstand what "gradual" means:

The Warranty does exclude gradual capacity loss, it uses that term specifically. My point is there is no definition of what gradual means.

Gradual is not a fuzzy term. You might be thinking about something like "slow", which is fuzzy. Where is the distinction between "slow" and "fast"? In contrast, the opposite of "gradual" is not fast, but "sudden" or "abrupt". That gives you a much sharper distinction. Imagine a battery that loses 5% of its capacity every month. It is not going to last very long, but that is still a gradual loss. But if it loses 5% of its capacity overnight, that is abrupt.

In more recent posts I have stated that Nissan's lawyers are undoubtedly quite aware of the real meaning of the word gradual, even if many LEAF owners are not. I'm sorry if this rubs people the wrong way. I am not trying to be callous about the real shock and pain that many owners are experiencing. I am saying that I think Nissan has covered its butt legally, and lawsuits are not likely to have any success.

Ray

 

[pchilds]

20% at 5 years is gradual, 20% at 4 months, 5% a month, is not. No traction battery that is at end of life at 2 years has gradual loss.

 

[mark1313]

I would imagine that the 2nd year of Leaf ownership will even be worst for our battery capacity then the first year..
Now that I have lost 20% of my charge I find myself charging more and sometime twice a day..Im guessing but by this time next year I will have a 6 bar lost and charging twice a day every day.. :evil:

 

[tokenride]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DEuGU0mGWc[/youtube]

Does anyone have any links to official Nissan videos or documents like the one above. I'm trying to gather all the ammo I can for the battle. I'm sure Nissan is monitoring this site so if you feel it appropriate to pm me then please do so.

Thank you in advance!

 

[planet4ever]

20% at 5 years is gradual, 20% at 4 months, 5% a month, is not. No traction battery that is at end of life at 2 years has gradual loss.

You are obviously falling into the English language trap that I am warning about. "Gradual" has nothing to do with how fast or slow something happens. It has to do with whether something happens all-at-once or a little bit at a time. Losing 0.2% of your battery capacity is a little bit. But if you lose 0.2% each day you drive the car, you will lose more than 5% in a month, and it would definitely be a gradual loss.

Ray

 

[mark1313]

It was videos like that that made me want to own a Leaf..Its so sad that Nissan deceived us all with their misleading videos and advertisements on the Leafs battery life..

 

[mark1313]

I wish I had my tape recorder going when they sold me my extended warranty..I specificly ask if it covered the batteries and she said yes..I would not of bought the warranty if it had not coverd the batteries..

Hello All:

I just lost another capacity bar over the long weekend

I did decide to persue to join a class action lawsuit with emphasis (from me) on battery replacment with ZERO cost. While I hate feeding the sharks(lawyers). I feel this would make fixing the problem faster for all of us with this problem.

The attorney's are asking me if I remember anyone telling me the warranty only covered the power output instead of capacity.

If my memory serves me correctly, I was clearly under the impression that the 8yr / 100,000 mile warranty gauranteed that it would cover capacity as well.
Is that the impression most of you got?

I have put over 25k miles on my Leaf now. I dont want to go back to gas!