Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[edatoakrun]

AFAIK, no one has accurately reported how quickly the LEAF battery heats or cools to ambient temperature.

From my experience 8 bars to 4 bars takes not more than 7 hours. I will try to record it more carefully next time I have battery heated much over ambient temp.

You must have DC access.

I drove 540 miles last weekend on 3.4 kW L2 charges in North California, with ambient temps ranging from about 50 to 80 F, and never got out of the 5-6 bar range.

 

[RegGuheert]

RegGuheert, what do you care, you don't even live near here.

I own a LEAF and I would like to figure out how to get the maximum number of years possible out of the car in order to minimize life-cycle costs. Since Nissan is not owning up to what is going on in Phoenix, I guess we are on our own to figure it out ourselves.

On a broader scale, if Nissan does not address this issue immediately, the reputations of the LEAF, Nissan and EVs will be scarred for a very long time.

Please note the PV solar NEVER got past the battery issue that hampered it for the past five decades. (Yes, you CAN build battery-based PV systems, but they continue to be a big issue.) Instead batteryless systems have become the face of PV that is accepted. Since BEVs cannot reasonably go batteryless, the issue of capacity life needs to be addressed head-on.

Nissan has tested the LEAF extensively here. They have a proving grounds a few miles south of the Phoenix area.

That's good to hear! Did they tell you to expect to lose 15% of your battery capacity in the first year?

 

[TonyWilliams]

I own a LEAF and I would like to figure out how to get the maximum number of years possible out of the car in order to minimize life-cycle costs.

Keep the battery cool, but not frozen, and keep the charge level at 50% as much as possible.

Don't leave the battery at 100% or 0% for any period, and don't freeze or bake the battery.

How's that? Study over.

 

[phxsmiley]

But I still think there is something more than just battery chemistry at work here. There is no way that we get this many people losing a bar in such a short period of time with such varied mileage, age and charge practices.

I agree with this, and also think they should have seen this behavior in their test vehicles here in Phoenix. I haven't lost a bar yet, don't have an SOC meter to check what my 'gid' value is, I don't notice range degredation, but have been experiencing the early problem that Volusiano reported, where a 'charge to 80% only yields 9 bars, not 10'. This happens sporadically, and I mostly charge to 80%

 

[mwalsh]

I've decided to start logging my charges again and, although it's only been two days, it looks like my new "normal" for a 100% charge is an end result in the low 90% range on the Gidometer. Now my car has never been one to charge to 100%/281 Gids on a consistent basis, being far more likely to charge into the mid-90s regularly. So with that said, the last two days of full charging have resulted in 92.8/261 and 91.8/258 respectively. Both these charges were not from where I would normally start charging, being as I hadn't covered that many miles this weekend, but they were from around mid pack (I think from 60% charged on Sunday and 50% charged last night).

What I don't appear to be seeing is this supposed "capacity loss" translating into much of anything in the way of lost range come the end of the day. Now I know this is second day of my normal commute from noticing these low values and all, and the first day where I've been logging, so the data is pretty inconclusive. But I had a "relaxed" drive to work this morning, resembling the ones I was doing during the first months of ownership pretty closely - 65mph on CC pretty much all the way to work - and arrived after 30.5 miles with 60 miles left on the GOM and 60.1%/169 Gids remaining. This was even with a tiny bit of A/C to cool the cabin off when I first got the car moving. These half-day numbers are ENTIRELY similar to what I was seeing when I first assembled my Gidometer last August. And even before I got my Gidometer, going right back to when I first got my car, I think my best day arriving at work was something like 66 miles remaining on the GOM, and more often than not it was more like ~58 miles remaining.

So I don't think I've personally any reason to worry that the sky is falling just yet. But let me get a few more days logging under my belt before I draw any firm conclusions. And, of course, I really have to see what happens when I start the day with a very low SOC/Gid count. But, as of right now, I feel all is fairly well with the world.

 

[RegGuheert]

I haven't lost a bar yet, don't have an SOC meter to check what my 'gid' value is, I don't notice range degredation, but have been experiencing the early problem that Volusiano reported, where a 'charge to 80% only yields 9 bars, not 10'. This happens sporadically, and I mostly charge to 80%

That's good that you haven't lost a bar, yet. I will note that your car was delivered to you at the end of August last year. Perhaps it was spared from most of the heat that affected some of the other cars in Phoenix.

 

[thankyouOB]

there seem to be two competing threads on this topic, with the OP starting the other one with an hysterical headline while this one was ongoing.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8921&p=199288#p199288" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He didnt seem to be making headway here with his argument.
It is clear to me that is a tactic to add heat and fury rather than light to the discussion.

 

[smkettner]

I own a LEAF and I would like to figure out how to get the maximum number of years possible out of the car in order to minimize life-cycle costs.

The real battery life cycle cost will also depend on cost of replacement battery and any value of battery traded in.
Nissan has not listed a full replacement cost yet AFAIK. I think battery replacement cost should be the first thing to address.

And to think we thought the first bar of capacity loss at 15% was to have 12 bars at end of lease. Looks like Nissan may get quite a few back with 10 or even less bars.

 

[RegGuheert]

The real battery life cycle cost will also depend on cost of replacement battery and any value of battery traded in.
Nissan has not listed a full replacement cost yet AFAIK. I think battery replacement cost should be the first thing to address.

I do not put a lot of miles on my cars, so my intention is to NOT replace the battery. The exception would be replacing individual modules if they went ou of specification outside the warranty period.

 

[QueenBee]

Just my two cents. I don't think Nissan has had enough time analysis this issue, let alone prepare a public response. I suspect that as these cars with lost bars are brought into dealerships for battery tests Nissan will be on top of this issue immediately researching, troubleshooting, etc. For all we know the issue might be as simple as replacing a couple modules and the packs will be on their way. Time will tell

 

[Volusiano]

One other detail would be of interest in the list of "lost-bar cars"... what color the car is. I live in Ridgecrest, CA, which runs about 10 degrees cooler than Phoenix, but we still get plenty of 115 degree days. I bought a white LEAF, specifically to reduce battery temperature. My car sits out all day at work. I've seen battery temps from three bars to seven or eight in the past 17 months.

Mine is blue (I'm one of the 11 bars'er), and I don't take my Leaf to work, so it doesn't sit outside all day every day for 8 or 9 hours. Most of the times, it sits in the garage during the day in the summer time unless family members take them out to malls or restaurants or errands. But in Phoenix, you tend to shy away from going out during the day in the summer. You wait until evenings when it's cooler before you venture out.

In terms of trying to do some more scientific measurement to confirm the capacity loss, I haven't done any yet. I'll report back on what the dealer has to say when I bring mine in for the 1 year battery checkup in the next week or two.

 

[RegGuheert]

Mine is blue (I'm one of the 11 bars'er), and I don't take my Leaf to work, so it doesn't sit outside all day every day for 8 or 9 hours. Most of the times, it sits in the garage during the day in the summer time unless family members take them out to malls or restaurants or errands. But in Phoenix, you tend to shy away from going out during the day in the summer. You wait until evenings when it's cooler before you venture out.

Is your garage inside the air-conditioning envelope for your house? Assuming it is not, does it benefit from the house's air conditioning? What would you estimate is the temperature in your garage on those hottest of days? Your garage peak temperature must be quite a bit below the outdoor peak, right?

 

[TickTock]

I seem to recall in order for that first bar of the battery status indicator to disappear a sizable chunk of battery capacity would need to be lost. I can't seem to find at the moment what the first bar lost equates to. Anyone recall?

Well, at 81% (228/281) I had all 12 bars. At 80.1% (225/281) I lost one. Seems like about 20% to me.

 

[turbo2ltr]

100		12
85		  11
78.75	  10
72.5		9
66.25		8
60			7
53.75		6
47.5		5
41.25		4
35			3
28.75		2
22.5		1
16.25		0

 

[TomT]

Since the battery is under the car, I'm not sure how much real difference car color makes in battery temperature...

One other detail would be of interest in the list of "lost-bar cars"... what color the car is. I live in Ridgecrest, CA, which runs about 10 degrees cooler than Phoenix, but we still get plenty of 115 degree days. I bought a white LEAF, specifically to reduce battery temperature.

 

[TonyWilliams]

In terms of trying to do some more scientific measurement to confirm the capacity loss, I haven't done any yet. I'll report back on what the dealer has to say when I bring mine in for the 1 year battery checkup in the next week or two.

Here's your dealer visit:

So, how did my car make out, the LEAF with 15% battery capacity loss?

Congrats! 5 stars!!! All is well !!!

But, I have 15% capacity loss.

That's normal. Thanks for playing.

Next customer.

Yes, I also have a capacity loss on my LEAF, but it's 2 missing bars.

Yes, normal. All is well; Nissan told me so. Next.

Hi, I also own a LEAF, and I have 3 missing capacity bars!!!! OMG !

Yes, completely normal, because you got them in order. First one was lost, then two, now three. See, that's what we call "gradual loss".

But what happens if I lost all 12 bars?

Did you lose them in order? One, then two, etc?

Yes

Have fun walking, cause that's normal, even though your car won't move.

Thanks for playing. Can I send you up to sales to get a new LEAF?

 

[smkettner]

Thanks for playing. Can I send you up to sales to get a new LEAF?

No thanks, I am ordering a 150 mile 12 year warranted battery from China.

 

[Ingineer]

I just bring this up because the 231 gids I get at 80% charge are not 80% of 281 gids, but 82,2%. And I remember Engineer (I think) saying that the 80% charge is the true 80% capacity of the battery unlike the 100% charge that is below the true 100% charge. As the 80% charge gid value is much more stable (I ALWAYS get 231 gids) it could be a better value to evaluate battery capacity.

Yes, when you set an 80% charge, it actually stops at 80% True SoC (Battery ECU's Reported SoC). When I do a charge to 100%, the numbers usually are 94%-95% SoC, with low SoC numbers also having lower Gids. (Keep in mind a Gid is 80 watt-hours)

So really the difference between "80%" and "100%" is actually only at most 15% not the 20% you'd expect.

Another good reason to only charge to 80% unless you need the "full" 94-95%. (You'd only be gaining at most 15%!)

-Phil

 

[Ingineer]

I just want to say, even if Nissan tested the Leaf in Phoenix, it pretty much had to be an accelerated life test, not the kind of real-time life test currently underway by all of Nissan's Phoenix customers. There are calendar life effects in Lithium chemistries as well as temperature and cycling. They may well interact in non-predictable ways.

I'm in the mild San Francisco Bay Area so I'll likely rarely charge or store a battery over 80 degrees F, but I'm going to watch mine closely.

-Phil

 

[cwerdna]

Out of the owners RegGuheert identified at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=199156#p199156" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, it'd be interesting to know for how long each of these is typically parked outside in the sun vs. under covered, presumably cooler parking and out of any direct sunlight.

It'd be interesting to know the same for Leaf owners in AZ who have about the same amount of time and mileage on their batteries and haven't lost a bar yet.

If I owned a Leaf, even here in the Bay Area (I live in the South Bay, which can get hot), I'd personally take precautions to keep it under covered parking or to park it where it gets less exposure to/fewer hours of direct sunlight/day (shaded by buildings, trees, etc.), where possible.