CA AB475 requires connection to the EVSE to avoid cite/tow

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Yanquetino said:
There are MUCH better ways of addressing the original PHEV problem this bill was supposed address, but GM refused to even consider them.

For example, it seems to me that the ultimate solution would for the DMV to issue third decals for EV and PHEV license plates, something like this:

I've been thinking about this- I like it, and the plate idea in general has come up before- though usually as a whole special plate. Other states already have them. Someone also suggested that there could be a symbol, like the stars and hands and such we have now. Which would be fine, but I too, would like to see the plate be used for multiple purposes and incentives, and those feel more like "one size fits all" to me.

What I like about the sticker (or adding one to one of the above options) is the ability to customize. So merely having the sticker or special plate at all designates you as a plug-in, and gives you access to charging and any other "lowest common denominator" incentives. But we can make the sticker different colors to differentiate between EVs and PHEVs, or other criteria, so that more restrictive incentives can still use the basic structure for their enforcement. Otherwise, we're going to have different stickers for every purpose, and we'll look like NASCAR EVs. :)

There are a couple items that I agree could be done this way, but I'd rather see done differently. I'd rather see road taxes be based on actual consumption, as gas taxes are now. The less you use, the less you pay. Mileage would be a second choice, but it gets sticky for PHEVs. Flat rates are an option, and are the easiest, but have no correlation to ones actual use, and therefore impact on the roads. But fundamentally, however they're measured, they could still be billed by the DMV.

I think the HOV stickers should have cost a lot more a long time ago. Maybe even an annual fee. Right now, there's no reason for someone not to get them, even if they never really use the lanes. But as there are a limited number of stickers, a significant fee would discourage that, while still being worth it for the convenience for regular commuters. And it might stave off some of the resentment others have about plug-ins getting access at all.
 
evchels said:
I'd rather see road taxes be based on actual consumption, as gas taxes are now. The less you use, the less you pay.
Yes! I completely agree. I'd rather see that too. It is only fair that those who use the roads more should pay more road tax. But how do we measure that for vehicles that don't pay via the gas pump?

My solution would be to forget the pump altogether, and charge the tax for all drivetrains... via tire sales. The more tires your vehicle has, the faster you wear them down, the more frequently you have to replace them... the more roadway you are using (and abusing), and the more tax you should pay.

True, some tires last longer than others, so some consumers might end up paying less taxes than others for the same number of miles driven, but... that kind of inequity is what is happening with different MPG at the gas pump anyway.

My $0.02 worth anyway. :)
 
Sent to Gov. Brown and to my state legislators. My assemblyman's district office is nearby, his web form has a short character limit, so I may just drive over to deliver a paper copy - and maybe give someone on his staff an opportunity to see what an EV is.

Dear Governor Brown,

As an EV driver I am writing to ask that you veto AB475 which was intended to promote EV charging but which would have the opposite effect. Michael Walsh posted his letter to you on a Nissan Leaf forum, and since he explains the problems with the bill very well I copy it below.

Dear Senator Kehoe and Assemblyman Fletcher,

The problem which I believe Ms. Butler was trying to address in AB475 still remains, and I hope the legislature will address it in an effective manner. As a pure EV driver, I would like the law to allow plug-in hybrid vehicles like the Chevy Volt to be able to use charging stations, because if more drivers use them then more charging stations will be built. It would be simple to do this by issuing EV parking stickers to plug-in hybrid drivers, and law enforcement would have a clear and easy way to check whether cars were parked legally. I'd be proud if my representatives were to co-sponsor a replacement bill for AB475 that would accomplish its intent, and work towards cleaning California's air and freeing America from dependence on foreign oil.

Thank you,
Walter Bays

[Michael Walsh's letter attached]

PS - The license plate sticker idea is better yet, but I hadn't read that post before I sent my notes. (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=123980#p123980)
 
Yanquetino said:
evchels said:
I'd rather see road taxes be based on actual consumption, as gas taxes are now. The less you use, the less you pay.
Yes! I completely agree. I'd rather see that too. It is only fair that those who use the roads more should pay more road tax. But how do we measure that for vehicles that don't pay via the gas pump?

My solution would be to forget the pump altogether, and charge the tax for all drivetrains... via tire sales. The more tires your vehicle has, the faster you wear them down, the more frequently you have to replace them... the more roadway you are using (and abusing), and the more tax you should pay.

It would be possible to meter kWh's consumed via a revenue grade meter in the EVSE. Really, most of the new cars have the technology to do it too, and the advantage of that approach is that it could even track your use at public charging stations both for tax purposes and charge the actual electrons it to your home electric bill. And since PHEVs already pay a gas tax, they'd only pay "EV" tax on the electricity. With miles, they get double-billed for gas miles.

It could be tires, though I'm not sure. Ironically, EVs tend to use thinner, lighter, low rolling-resistance tires, which often wear out faster. I used to replace tires on my EV1s every 5,000 miles...but that could just be my right foot. :)
 
evchels said:
It could be tires, though I'm not sure. Ironically, EVs tend to use thinner, lighter, low rolling-resistance tires, which often wear out faster. I used to replace tires on my EV1s every 5,000 miles...but that could just be my right foot. :)
Aha! Well, that heavy right foot would certainly be wearing out more roadway and deserve to pay more road tax! :lol:
 
Uh-oh... if the governor signs AB745, here is a tow just waiting to happen:

WattStation-large2.jpg


That photo is from a Fast Company article on the issue. Nice to see the additional coverage, but it frankly irks me that they failed to give credit to Chelsea as the prime mover-and-shaker to expose the bill's flaws.
 
Yanquetino said:
That photo is from a Fast Company article on the issue.
Wow. A lot of assumptions by GM in that article. For example:
"The charging equipment [features] a standard connector, and you can only plug in electric vehicles for charging a battery," says GM representative Shad Balch.
I guess Shad Balch has never used a Coulomb Technologies ChargePoint when virtually all of them have a standard 120V, 16A, NEMA 5-20R outlet!
 
Spies said:
Yanquetino said:
That photo is from a Fast Company article on the issue.
Wow. A lot of assumptions by GM in that article. For example:
"The charging equipment [features] a standard connector, and you can only plug in electric vehicles for charging a battery," says GM representative Shad Balch.
I guess Shad Balch has never used a Coulomb Technologies ChargePoint when virtually all of them have a standard 120V, 16A, NEMA 5-20R outlet!

Or that PH/EV aren't the only vehicles that you can plug in...even if "only to charge a battery"

Notably, nothing in the language says anything about being plugged in. It says "connected", and there are a variety of ways to do that.
 
So after reading the short Fast Company article article it is abundantly clear that GM wants to eliminate the idea of plug sharing and having one EVSE service a number a parking spaces but I still fail to understand why they would want this and what their reasoning is. Any ideas outside of conspiracy theories? To tell you the truth I am pretty fed up with the whole thing so my personal solution might just be to never charge at public charging locations outside of CHAdeMO just to avoid this mess. Perhaps this is what GM wants?

From the article:
GM admits that nixing shared chargers is part of the law, but claims that is a feature, not a bug, and part of planning for an all-electric world. "The idea of plug-sharing works well when there are a small number of EVs on the road and there is a community protocol, but with tens of thousands of EVs coming, we will run into issues of tampering and unplugging," says Balch.
 
From the article:
GM admits that nixing shared chargers is part of the law, but claims that is a feature, not a bug, and part of planning for an all-electric world. "The idea of plug-sharing works well when there are a small number of EVs on the road and there is a community protocol, but with tens of thousands of EVs coming, we will run into issues of tampering and unplugging," says Balch.
[/quote]

Yes, if they truly believe that then the bill should have trigger mechanism linked to a ration of the number of chargers to the number of vehicles, and perhaps calculate that by county.
 
Spies said:
So after reading the short Fast Company article article it is abundantly clear that GM wants to eliminate the idea of plug sharing and having one EVSE service a number a parking spaces but I still fail to understand why they would want this and what their reasoning is. Any ideas outside of conspiracy theories?

From the article:
GM admits that nixing shared chargers is part of the law, but claims that is a feature, not a bug, and part of planning for an all-electric world. "The idea of plug-sharing works well when there are a small number of EVs on the road and there is a community protocol, but with tens of thousands of EVs coming, we will run into issues of tampering and unplugging," says Balch.

Gosh, all the emails I have from him stating specifically that sharing promotes "malicious unplugging" and must be outlawed oughtta come in handy...because you know that it's only the other EV drivers that would maliciously unplug someone, right? Any other member of he public unplugging someone for reasons benign or malicious? He's assured me that it's just a speculative fear on my part, even though it already happens..just without the consequences to the victim that this law assures.

Well, this whole stance is both recent and a total reversal on GM's position. For two months, and as recently as last Thursday, GM's policy rep said repeatedly that losing sharing would be a bummer, increased site costs would be bad, and potential vandalism issues were a fair concern. He was also straightforward about the fact that GM didn't share the degree of concern that we had, but still agreed on the concepts, and they'd be fine with going back to the original version of the bill, using the stickers. Where he was less clear was in suggesting to us that they were really pushing to go back to the original version, when in fact they were telling Butler's office the whole time that even if there were concerns from the drivers, GM was fine with this version.

So all of this new stuff from Shad came about over the weekend, as he and I continued to email back and forth behind the scenes while he called me names in public. Had I known it was a waste of time because they'd already decided I was the only one who didn't think the bill was good and therefore a crackpot, I wouldn't have spent so much time on it, but it sure is interesting now how the thread evolved. I first assumed that he must not have known the history of our interaction with the policy rep and was just grasping at straws to defended the situation he was handed, but it turns out he was on contact w the policy rep all along. So either we were lied to all along more than we knew, or they've reversed position on several points. Shad claims neither, that they're just "clarifying their position".

The only thing I can think of (and y'all may still think it's conspiracy) is that this is a misguided attempt to protect the Volts. Based on various forum statements of a few EV folks, GM seems to be under the impression that we're all going to run around and unplug the Volts out of resentment or entitlement. He accused me of it on twitter on Monday. And I've certainly heard people say they don't believe PHEVs should get to use public charging, or that they'd unplug a PHEV first if they needed a charge, but I think GM's taking it a bit far. But in our various conversations, I did point out that even from a PR perspective, forcing this through is dumb, as it will only increase resentment toward GM, and by extension, the Volt drivers. Which is about when sharing became the single source of malicious unplugging, installing chargers between spaces became "irresponsible", and unplugging anyone for any reason (even with permission) should be codified as vandalism and punished as such. Of course, w/r/t our real concern about non-EV drivers unplugging cars for reasons benign or malicious...totally fabricated concern. Oh, and now the stickers are evil and against GM's principles, and it was always the goal to get rid of them.

So I'm guessing that he thinks that if they can get rid of sharing, no one will unplug the Volts. Of course, this law doesn't make it illegal to unplug someone, and they've not sought to make it vandalism in any criminal statute. What their law does do is punish the victim by making his vehicle subject to towing. So how they think this law will prevent any Volt unplugging, I don't know. But if it's not that, I'm out of ideas.
 
I am getting ready to convert my Ford Escape Hybrid to PHEV it will get about 90 MPG and run in EV mode up to about 50 mph.. I will have no desire to plug in and charge at an EV Parking spot because this car is a Hybrid!.. It can recharge the Traction pack itself.. There is no reason to allow PHEV cars in to EV spots.. The Volt Simply does not rely on electricity like an EV does.. And if the EV does not need a Charge it should still be allowed in the spot as a perk for buying the car as an early adopter!. I to would gladly unplug a PHEV if I need the Charge in My LEAF. After All, I cant leave If don't Recharge the PHEV can.

Just Posted on Gov Browns FB page..
https://www.facebook.com/jerrybrown?sk=wall&filter=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
evchels said:
Gosh, all the emails I have from him stating specifically that sharing promotes "malicious unplugging" and must be outlawed oughtta come in handy...because you know that it's only the other EV drivers that would maliciously unplug someone, right? Any other member of he public unplugging someone for reasons benign or malicious? He's assured me that it's just a speculative fear on my part, even though it already happens..just without the consequences to the victim that this law assures.


The article quote said:
GM admits that nixing shared chargers is part of the law, but claims that is a feature, not a bug, and part of planning for an all-electric world. "The idea of plug-sharing works well when there are a small number of EVs on the road and there is a community protocol, but with tens of thousands of EVs coming, we will run into issues of tampering and unplugging," says Balch. "

What?! Is GM (or Balch) so naive as to think that tampering will STOP because of this law? When "thousands of EVs" gets here, sharing will become MORE important. Not less. If more charging stations are built for the thousands of EVs, more likely ICE drivers, not EVs, who will feel that EV gets unfair parking advantages and will do it out of spite, thereby punishing ALL plug-ins with this law. Then we all will spend MORE time/$/effort changing this law, or making new laws to counter this BADLY WRITTEN AB475.

evchels said:
The only thing I can think of (and y'all may still think it's conspiracy) is that this is a misguided attempt to protect the Volts

That's EXACTLY it. GM is trying to protect the Volt, at the expense of the EV community as a whole. Can you say short-sighted and selfish? This PR will end up hurting GM (and Volt drivers, by extension). Bad move GM...out for more beatings? EV1 black-eye is not enough?


BTW, I wrote to Gov Jerry Brown to veto the law....hmm...by extension, if it gets veto, I'm helping out GM, which is something I'm not inclined to do right now.
 
thew said:
There is no reason to allow PHEV cars in to EV spots.. The Volt Simply does not rely on electricity like an EV does.. And if the EV does not need a Charge it should still be allowed in the spot as a perk for buying the car as an early adopter!
This is an extremely shortsighted and counterproductive view. The big picture is that we as a nation need to break our gasoline addiction. There are lots of reasons for that; pick your favorite: smog, peak oil, global warming, funding terrorists, import imbalance, ...

Now, how do we break that addiction? We get as many people as possible using electricity as much as possible to power their transportation. Some of us are ready to go the pure EV route and that's great. Others need to take baby steps, and we should encourage them. Still others have looked at their auto requirements and decided - quite properly - that they need a single vehicle which can occasionally go long distances, but they want one that runs on electricity most of the time. We should applaud them.

Do not penalize people who are trying to do the right thing!

Ray
 
planet4ever said:
This is an extremely shortsighted and counterproductive view. The big picture is that we as a nation need to break our gasoline addiction. There are lots of reasons for that; pick your favorite: smog, peak oil, global warming, funding terrorists, import imbalance,

While I agree with this, and also believe that PHEVs should be allowed at the trough. I would dearly like to hope that your average PHEV driver would be considerate of our need to charge vs. his desire to charge.

That said, I think this law is the completely wrong approach for right now. Maybe in a few years time, when the infrastructure is sufficiently built out, it would be the right one. But for right now, this pig needs to be killed.
 
mwalsh said:
planet4ever said:
This is an extremely shortsighted and counterproductive view. The big picture is that we as a nation need to break our gasoline addiction. There are lots of reasons for that; pick your favorite: smog, peak oil, global warming, funding terrorists, import imbalance,

While I agree with this, and also believe that PHEVs should be allowed at the trough. I would dearly like to hope that your average PHEV driver would be considerate of our need to charge vs. his desire to charge.

We need to be careful here. Most of the time, EV drivers do not need the charge either. It happens occasionally, but rarely will any one public charge determine whether you get to your next destination or not. Most of the time, it's topping off.

So: we can't both claim range anxiety is overblown while also claiming to need unobstructed access to all chargers all the time. (I know you didn't say this specifically, but there are different degrees of this same sentiment being expressed all over the place right now.)

Most EVs will not actually drive more EV miles by using public charging, because most people are around that 40-mile mark in terms of daily driving. Occasional destination driving, yes, but not on a day-to-day basis. PHEVs, on the other hand (esp minimally-electrified ones, like the Prius) will end up doing more EV miles because of public charging.

And, regularly used chargers makes the case for more...

So I think everyone should be encouraged not to take the last charging spot if they don't need it (we've already started asking folks to forgo charging if they don't have to at LAX because those spots get crowded), but we need to be careful about confining the PHEVs to that request. Being more inclusive and less judgmental will get them into BEVs faster, but it will also make them want to participate more in the community protocols and common courtesy-based behaviors like this one. The last thing we need is bi-directional resentment and PHEVs retaliating against EVs.
 
evchels said:
...
Being more inclusive and less judgmental will get them into BEVs faster, but it will also make them want to participate more in the community protocols and common courtesy-based behaviors like this one. The last thing we need is bi-directional resentment and PHEVs retaliating against EVs.

Well said. If we all just have a bit of "common courtesy", it would go a long way, and reduce the need for too many sometime useless and confusing laws like AB475. "That's why I carry the EV-charging Courtesy card..." ;)
 
The strawberry faction is posting so prolifically there that I doubt anything else is going to be seen...
Email or snail mail is far more effective anyway.

thew said:
Just Posted on Gov Browns FB page..
https://www.facebook.com/jerrybrown?sk=wall&filter=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
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