Bye, my Leaf

[TonyWilliams]

pulse-and-glide techniques

Just curious, does pulse-and-glide improve efficiency in a Leaf? I thought it worked for hybrids like the Prius because it gives you a mixture of engine running at optimal RPMs and no engine, versus constantly running the engine at a lower efficiency RPMs. Does the electric motor in the Leaf have an efficiency versus RPMs profile that would favor pulse-and-glide?

Thanks, Wayne

Does not apply to electrics, but certainly steady power (and decreasing speed up hill) and regen downhill works. Anticipating lights to not need regen, etc.

 

[Shaka]

As our Noway-friend says, cold weather just kills the range. But I still think dfriedla's "true" range isn't 30-miles as he claims... I bet he could go 50-miles before getting any sort of LBW....

Could you quantify that speculation? Several posts up, I quantified 40-45 mile range at 2.5miles/kWh, which really does mean an "effective" range of 30-35 miles with 10 miles of reserve.

I'll quantify it the best way I know how-- my personal experiences. Having visited Chicago MANY times in my life (I'd estimate that for work and pleasure I have been to Chicago and the surrounding suburbs a total of 40 or 50 times in my 36-years of life, most of those times in the last 15-20 years)... I feel confident that I'm aware of the lay of the land. And there is actually more "hill" driving here in Ohio than most of Chicago. Elevation changes exist in both, but the OP even said himself his area is "flat" ... so based on that...

We have driven our LEAF in Cleveland as much as 40 miles. Weather in Ohio vs Chicago is almost identical (temps are VERY similar, snow fall is similar, etc -- we are separated by merely 300 miles). When we hit 40 miles, we still had two bars of power remaining. On average I see 5 miles per bar in the winter weather with the heat on at 68-F in AUTO, driving in ECO mode. That means an LBW for me would be another 8-10 miles away. That is 50 miles there... which was the number I threw out in my email. Now, have I actually gone 50 miles in cold temps and then seen a LBW? No. But I'm using the best data I have, the only data I have, given my similar terrain/location/etc....

 

[TonyWilliams]

I'll quantify it the best way I know how-- .... Weather in Ohio vs Chicago is almost identical (temps are VERY similar, snow fall is similar, etc -- we are separated by merely 300 miles). When we hit 40 miles, we still had two bars of power remaining.

By quantify, I'm mean delineated data that can be objectively compared with specific numbers. Without knowing what "cold" is (I guarantee my cold is different than your cold) or what your economy is (miles per kWh or Wh per mile), etc.

Any range autonomy on any transportation machine is merely its stored energy multiplied by rate of consumption of energy.

Knowing the specific battery temperature is key to understanding how much it holds. As I specified previously, the difference between "cold" at 30F and "really cold" at -10F is probably 10% different, as is the difference between 30F and 70F (another 10% difference). Obviously, normal degradation of the battery through heat exposure, discharge cycles, and time also must be factored.

The rate of consumption is the other half of the equation, and covers everything else. The only tool we have readily available (and it has plenty of limitations) is the miles/kWh reading.

A Nissan LEAF at 2.5 miles/kWh with a BRAND NEW battery at 70F degrees or higher will only go 52.5 miles.

As described above, a cold battery can easily have 20% less stored available energy, hence 20% less range autonomy at the same economy.

 

[Shaka]

A Nissan LEAF at 2.5 miles/kWh with a BRAND NEW battery at 70F degrees or higher will only go 52.5 miles.
As described above, a cold battery can easily have 20% less stored available energy, hence 20% less range autonomy at the same economy.

And based on the numbers you've mentioned, and knowing what the average temps have been in Chicago and Cleveland lately, I speculated that his range would be only 10% less. But you're right there are WAY too many variables here, that neither of us have access to....

BUT one other point--- even at 20% less range for "very cold" -- based on the calculations you've posted here, he would still see over 40 miles of range. That is 33% more than the "I only get 30 miles" that the individual here was saying. As a few others have posted here, something seems off if 30 miles of range is truly all he got. But as he also said he never drove to an LBW, IIRC what he wrote earlier ... then who knows.

Being a n00b here I've got nothing else to contribute here, and obviously lack the data/knowledge/etc that people like you do. I just hate to see this guy ditch his car when I feel like there is either a) something wrong with the car or b) something wrong with the data.... :?:

 

[jackal]

I also can say that running my tires over-inflated, (I keep them at 50 PSI) makes a big difference in both range and handling. (I don't recommend anyone exceed the maximum pressure listed on the sidewall though!)
-Phil

Do you have any visible side effects? I thought mine was high at 48 and already my mechanic was telling me that i am going to wear out the tires unnecessarily faster. I am intrigued by the idea though!

The stock Bridgestone Ecopia tires will wear better at the max tire pressue, and you get a tiny improvement in range.

The recommended psi is 36 psi. Are you saying the max psi for the stock tire is 40?

 

[Reddy]

The "I only get 30 miles" poster has said that he/she cannot charge at home. Thus, I postulate that the car is parked on the street, cold soaked, and probably has remote CC turned on before use. If you CC without shore power, for even 15 min that could use 5+% of the battery. Thirty minute CC in a Chicago winter might take 10-15% of the battery. Add to that all the window scraping, clearing off the headlights, additional hours charging away from home, yuck. I know I wouldn't like my Leaf as much if I was in a similar situation. Charging at home takes NO effort and shore power pre-heating INSIDE my garage is AWESOME. In another year I probably won't understand how to fill a gas tank :lol:
Reddy

 

[cwerdna]

Hopefully dfriedla gets back to us w/more info and questions answered, possibly w/continued discussion in a more appropriate thread.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=261900#p261900" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is an example of (IMHO) a good trip report in very cold weather.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The stock Bridgestone Ecopia tires will wear better at the max tire pressue, and you get a tiny improvement in range.

The recommended psi is 36 psi. Are you saying the max psi for the stock tire is 40?

I believe it's 44 psi cold.

 

[TonyWilliams]

A Nissan LEAF at 2.5 miles/kWh with a BRAND NEW battery at 70F degrees or higher will only go 52.5 miles.
As described above, a cold battery can easily have 20% less stored available energy, hence 20% less range autonomy at the same economy.

And based on the numbers you've mentioned, and knowing what the average temps have been in Chicago and Cleveland lately, I speculated that his range would be only 10% less. But you're right there are WAY too many variables here, that neither of us have access to....

Ah, we do have access to the info... Just ask the poster.

 

[cwerdna]

I am a bit surprised that no one mentioned the battery heater (cold weather package) in this thread. That is supposed to kick on at 14F isn't it?

Nope.

I did think about and looked up some figures here on MNL saying no. I just confirmed it in the manual.

From the '12 Leaf manual:

The Li-ion battery heater helps to prevent the Li-ion battery from freezing and helps to prevent significant reductions in the Li-ion battery output when the temperature is cold. The Li-ion battery heater automatically turns on when the Li-ion battery temperature is approximately -4 F (-20 C) or colder. The Li-ion battery heater automatically turns off when the Li-ion battery temperture is approximately 14 F (-10 C) or higher.

(Had to edit out the degree signs that got transformed into 8s.)

 

[jimcmorr]

Well, I had the 14 F right, just had the wrong change of state. :shock:

Even so it would not be hard to imagine that the battery heater might come on in a Chicago winter night out on the street.

 

[TomT]

The maximum safe pressure is the one listed on the side of the tire. 44 in the case of the Ecopias... Going above that can be dangerous and will give little ROI so don't do it...

The stock Bridgestone Ecopia tires will wear better at the max tire pressue, and you get a tiny improvement in range.

The recommended psi is 36 psi. Are you saying the max psi for the stock tire is 40?[/quote]

 

[dfriedla]

As our Noway-friend says, cold weather just kills the range. But I still think dfriedla's "true" range isn't 30-miles as he claims... I bet he could go 50-miles before getting any sort of LBW....

Could you quantify that speculation? Several posts up, I quantified 40-45 mile range at 2.5miles/kWh, which really does mean an "effective" range of 30-35 miles with 10 miles of reserve.

Yes, I predict he could increase range any number of ways, but has chosen so far not to (for whatever reason).

1- Turn the heater off if you need the range - I recommend modifying the heater to fan only defrost
2- Consider any simple and cheap 300w auxiliary electric heater, preferably with its own battery
3- Preheat the cabin while still plugged in
4- Heat the battery in a garage, or use a simple heating pad that plugs into 120v. This will aid with regen that you are also losing with a cold battery
5- Use standard techniques to increase range (max tire pressure, hypermiling, etc)

Sorry to vanish—I am really sick of this whole damn thing. I bought a Toyota yesterday; I find it really sad that my EV experience would drive me to buy my first-ever all-gas car. Still have the Leaf, and I strongly suspect I'm going to need the help of an attorney to get rid of it. Exploring that possibility right now because one person does not need two cars.

To answer a lot of the speculation buzzing around here, I, like many urban residents, live in a condo. With a commercial parking garage. Simply put, there are lights, etc. plugged in no the same circuit, and I blow fuses when I plug in the trickle-charger so I'm not allowed to do that anymore. I have asked the valets never to park my car outside, and, as best I can tell, they have complied. It pretty effectively nixes any sort of preheating, so I don't bother. Also, as a lifelong resident of Chicago, yes, we're pretty damn flat—the kids in the park by my apartment are sledding on maybe 10 feet of elevation. I don't know what they have going on in the suburbs because that isn't Chicago. Thanks for making assumptions based on "visits" (oh, speaking of assumptions, I'm a woman).

Tires are fully inflated. I drive conservatively; I drove a Prius for 7 years, ffs. Where exactly would I have picked up a lead foot? I do need to keep the CC on at least minimally because I need air circulation when I drive; the fan is usually set at the bare minimum and the heat is set to 60 with defrost as needed.

Nissan's tech got approximately the same mileage I did during a test the day before yesterday. My favorite part of my entire Nissan saga was the conversation I had yesterday in which the service advisor claimed that everything is fine, then went and talked to him and came back to clarify that he drove 36 miles in 10 fuel bars "only because he used the headlights and the heat." Folks, it was a. nighttime and b. 0º F. I don't consider that unreasonable, much less for a $38k car. In fact, I would have been really pissed off had he gotten a ticket on my behalf for driving at night without his headlights on. (For the record, he had it in D, not Eco as I always do, because he had never driven a Leaf before and didn't know Eco existed. Way to instill confidence, Mid-City Nissan...)

I think I have been pretty reasonable, in terms of what I've done to try to increase my range. I think I represent the urban nerd demographic pretty well, and I think that's probably the Leaf's target demographic around here. That I am still getting half of the 62º the disclosure claimed as the worst case scenario (that's 14º, heavy traffic, wind and heat) is outrageously unacceptable. I am done.

 

[freddms]

I'm in Iowa -- pretty much same cold climate as Chicago. Parked in heated garage (50 degrees). Using 120V and 240V charger. Preheat before driving and set heater to 60 on Leaf once I leave -- run on heat/defrost with low fan. This drops heat power in half and many times I can get to a 5-10 mile destination without having to use any KW for heat (with minimal inside fog). Heated seats and steering full blast.

Just leased the Leaf last week BUT I have been driving a Volt for a little over a year (18,000 miles). It takes TIME to learn how to drive an electric car.

I have 7 bars right now. Range w/o heat is 59 miles. With heat 47 miles. And, although it's been suggested the miles don't accurately reflect the range it has for me. It's accurate if your driving is consistent. First drive was from Dubuque, IA to Cedar Rapids, IA -- just under 70 miles, 20 degrees, with a very strong headwind. As I learned after the fact, I was lucky to get in the driveway but those are pretty extreme conditions. Leaving Dubuque is very hilly too -- and I lost 20 miles on my dash before going 5 miles which made me cut out all power consumption.

With that said -- the first time my daughter drove the Leaf she went about 20 miles and felt the range dropped a LOT -- so it's conceivable that you could drive the Leaf in the cold down to 2.0-2.2 miles/KWH. She had been driving a gas car and is willing to adjust since she does not have to pay for gas anymore!

Watch your KW screen. You have to learn how to preserve energy. Most people just want to drive and ignore efficiency. With current battery technology (a 400 pound battery can store the same energy as a 7 pound gallon of gas) the electric cars are probably not ready for the average person not willing to commit to learning how to drive different. I don't know if I keep the Leaf after 39 month lease to so far it looks very good!

But the big question: Why the heck would anyone buy an electric PLUG IN car you can't plug in where you live? Sounds like someone that probably would not know what driving habits are or how to change them. Sorry for being a little obnoxious but if you are spending 30 grand knowing exactly how you would fuel your car might be a good idea.

 

[cwerdna]

To answer a lot of the speculation buzzing around here, I, like many urban residents, live in a condo. With a commercial parking garage. Simply put, there are lights, etc. plugged in no the same circuit, and I blow fuses when I plug in the trickle-charger so I'm not allowed to do that anymore. I have asked the valets never to park my car outside, and, as best I can tell, they have complied. It pretty effectively nixes any sort of preheating, so I don't bother. Also, as a lifelong resident of Chicago, yes, we're pretty damn flat—the kids in the park by my apartment are sledding on maybe 10 feet of elevation. I don't know what they have going on in the suburbs because that isn't Chicago. Thanks for making assumptions based on "visits" (oh, speaking of assumptions, I'm a woman).

Tires are fully inflated. I drive conservatively; I drove a Prius for 7 years, ffs. Where exactly would I have picked up a lead foot? I do need to keep the CC on at least minimally because I need air circulation when I drive; the fan is usually set at the bare minimum and the heat is set to 60 with defrost as needed.

We could only speculate due to the lack of info. This is part of why I think there needs to be a simple standard questionnaire that we can point people to when they complain of lack of range, so that we're all on the same page.

If you're going to have to stay w/the car, another suggestion (although some folks here have said it's poorly built), is a Chevy Volt L1 EVSE. Those apparently have a button to switch between pulling 8 amps or 12 amps. At 8 amps, it might not blow fuses or trip breakers where you're at. At least you could fully charge at home and let the batteries balance. Maybe see if you can borrow one.

Just because one has owned a Prius doesn't automatically mean one doesn't have a lead foot or have poor/improper driving habits for mileage. I've seen people complain about mileage who aren't driving it right for mileage or stories like "when I drive it, I get ____ mpg, when my wife drives it she gets (some lower value) mpg)" all the time.

Fortunately, http://www.mercurynews.com/mrroadshow/ci_11917435" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is back up available for everyone. You can see some non-Prius drivers complaining that Prius drivers go too fast...

As for the bolded part, you're running the inefficient heater and I suspect that's largely responsible for your short range/low miles/kwh figure.