Bye, my Leaf

[EdmondLeaf]

Others may disagree, but I agree with you, when cold weather hits, Leaf is completely different than during warmer weather. You have two options; either driving like grandma or agree with limited range. If I am correct last winter a person from Chicago traded Leaf for Volt within week or two of ownership for same reason what you describing. Dealers are not very helpful to explain Leaf limitations. Very unfortunate that it is your only car, Nissan should let you do early lease return. What about paying early lease return penalty and be done with it?

 

[surfingslovak]

If I am correct last winter a person from Chicago traded Leaf for Volt within week or two of ownership for same reason what you describing.

You are correct, I will find the corresponding post if I have time later. There was a fairly vocal owner in Florida, who has gone the same route early on. I myself nearly traded in for a Volt in November 2011. A local GM dealer offered $27K for my 2011 LEAF SV. The only thing that kept me from going through with the transaction wast the lack of lease incentives from GM. By the time those were extended, I learned how to compromise and was way too involved in the LEAF community to give up on the car.

I can see how everyone's situation is different though, and I believe others in cold climates owe you a debt of gratitude for letting Nissan know about your situation. Have you been following jkirkebo here on the forum? He reportedly owns the first LEAF delivered to Norway.

 

[cwerdna]

I have 2.5 years left on the lease, it's my only vehicle, and its extremely limited range is compounded by my inability to plug in at home (thanks, completely uninformed Nissan salesman! That was some swell advice you gave me!).

Why can't you plug in at home?

Anyway, to get back on point:
- Miles/kwh? about 2.5 these days, though I don't recall ever getting more than 3.7ish
- Speeds? Well, since I can't get out of the city on 30 miles, I almost exclusively use city streets. 30 mph tops, usually.
- Elevation changes? None. See also: Chicago
- How are you using the HVAC system? Minimally, but some. I get carsick, so I need some circulation. I try to keep it set as low as it goes both in terms of temperature and fan.
- Temps? Well, a few weeks ago, when I discovered that my local DC station doesn't work in the cold, it was 12º. It's been well below that this week. Generally this winter, it's been between 20º and 40º.
- Gid count at 100% charge? Date and outside temp when taken? Never taken a Gid count, sorry.
- How are you "determining" your range? (e.g. driving down to some value on the GOM, driving down to a certain # of "fuel bars", driving to LBW, VLBW or turtle?) Odometer readings. I keep a charging log.
- How full are you charging to? As full as I can—I need every drop of power to get back to the charging station.
- How many capacity bars have you lost? Zero.

I've only been to Chicago once. There might be some elevation changes. Try using Google Earth (http://priuschat.com/threads/google-earth-can-give-you-an-elevation-profile-of-a-route-between-2-points.100653/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

Can you maybe start a separate thread about your range problems or maybe just add onto http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=10303&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and edit the title of the 1st post? Did you follow the hints people gave there and at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=242124#p242124" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (and the applicable posts that follow)? I suspect the heater is killing your range. Are you using the heated seats?

If you haven't been charging to 100% and letting the batteries balance, you've probably got some reduced capacity there. (See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=184814" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; re: balancing, someone chime in if Tony's not right.) I'd imagine your also getting some temporary capacity loss due to the cold temps. As for city, I suspect that's another problem. If you're sitting stopped or going slow w/the heater on, then that heater is drawing a considerable fixed overhead for the duration of the trip.

I suspect you're also using the heater (aka range killer) when you don't realize it due to '11-12 HVAC control quirks. I don't know the details since I don't own a Leaf, but http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=7743" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has FAQ. I don't know how accurate it is. You should be able to tell if the heater is on by looking at the energy info screen (see video at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=6751" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

When you say "30 miles" of range, how many fuel bars are you starting with and ending with? Ignore the GOM.

 

[kubel]

Others may disagree, but I agree with you, when cold weather hits, Leaf is completely different than during warmer weather. You have two options; either driving like grandma or agree with limited range. If I am correct last winter a person from Chicago traded Leaf for Volt within week or two of ownership for same reason what you describing. Dealers are not very helpful to explain Leaf limitations. Very unfortunate that it is your only car, Nissan should let you do early lease return. What about paying early lease return penalty and be done with it?

Here's what works for me (52 mile commute, 40-60MPH, heater, heated seats, heated steering wheel when needed)...

~55F and up: Charge to 80% at home, don't need to charge at work. I need 3-4 bars to get home.
~30F: Charge to 80% at home, trickle charge for 4 hours at work. I need 6 bars to get home.
~5F: Charge to 80% at home, trickle charge for 8-9 hours at work. I need 7 bars to get home.

 

[TonyWilliams]

- Miles/kwh? about 2.5 these days, though I don't recall ever getting more than 3.7ish

- Temps? Well, a few weeks ago, when I discovered that my local DC station doesn't work in the cold, it was 12º. It's been well below that this week.

- How are you "determining" your range? (e.g. driving down to some value on the GOM, driving down to a certain # of "fuel bars", driving to LBW, VLBW or turtle?) Odometer readings. I keep a charging log.

The economy (the miles/kWh) is troubling, not the battery capacity. Assuming there is nothing wrong with your battery, let's stipulate that it has the following capacity:

21kWh usable when new at 70F, and for your relatively new car that has never been in Phoenix or other hot area, let's assume 5% battery degradation, for 19.95kWh. Then, for your extreme cold, let's subtract 10% at 30F (Cold) degrees and 20% at -10F (Really Cold):

17.96kWh = Cold
15.96kWh = Really Cold

I assume you are resetting your dash economy instrument after each electron "fill up", so if you are really showing 2.5 miles/kWh, then your calculated range would be:

2.5 * 17.96kWh = 44.9 miles of "Cold" range autonomy
2.5 * 15.96kWh = 39.9 miles of "Really Cold" range autonomy

So, your battery is probably "Nissan Normal(TM)", but let's talk about getting your economy higher; 2.5 miles/kWh is just abysmal. Unfortunately, my first reaction is the heater causing this, but you claim you don't use it a lot.

Could you do a simple experiment and drive the car without any heater / defrost?

1- Fully charge the car
2- Preheat the cabin while plugged in
3- Reset the trip odometer
4- Reset the dash economy gauge
5- Heater OFF - Do not touch anything after turning OFF; even the fan will once again power the heater
6- Cover the GOM
7- Make your normal drive, then....

1- Report the battery temperature (assumed to be ambient if left outside overnight)
2- Report your economy from the previously reset dash instrument
3- Report miles driven from the odometer
4- Report the fuel gauge indicator reading (how many of the 12 fuel bars remain?)
5- Report how many miles past any of the following; Low Battery Warning, Very Low Battery, or "---" (I recommend resetting the second trip odometer when you reach any of these milestones)

DO NOT REPORT THE GOM VALUES!!!

If you need defrost, it may be possible to crack the passenger window. Alternately, you could make a simple heater out of one of these:

KAT's by Five Star - Interior Heater Part # 37500

Plug that into, preferably, a fully charged 12v battery that is capable of 40ah and sitting in a box on the passenger floor.

Your economy should get something far higher than 2.5 for your reported style and speed of driving, unless you're pushing snow on the road, standing water, or a headwind and uphill... both ways!

Again, the heater must be OFF, without touching the controls after OFF. If you just turn the fan on, the heater will automatically come on. There is a kit to override this "feature".

 

[Shaka]

Here's what works for me (52 mile commute, 40-60MPH, heater, heated seats, heated steering wheel when needed)...

~55F and up: Charge to 80% at home, don't need to charge at work. I need 3-4 bars to get home.
~30F: Charge to 80% at home, trickle charge for 4 hours at work. I need 6 bars to get home.
~5F: Charge to 80% at home, trickle charge for 8-9 hours at work. I need 7 bars to get home.

Wow! We have been down to 3 bars, but mostly around 4. However as our home garage is attached and heated to 40-45 F, the car is only outside in the cold from about 9am till 5pm at work (then our drive home, so really till 5:30pm I guess). Still, we haven't see weather that cold. I'm in Cleveland, Ohio, so similar temps to you in Michigan.

Since you said 40-60mph sounds like you are expressway or rural country roads. We see the same sort of levels you see, but I'm charging daily to 100% right now (may switch to 80% in summer) as we just got the car a month ago. We are driving a maximum of 25 miles round trip during the day for work, and come home usually with 5-bars consumed in our travels. Like you, we have heater on and heated seats/steering on too. Car is a 2012, and I do my entire drive in ECO mode in stop/go city streets never getting over 38mph.

For the folks in this thread who claim the LEAF isn't good for cold weather, I disagree that it is bad... I think it just might not work as well for everyone given their length/distance of commute and personal desires/needs. For us we're not even using half the charge (and of course there is travel distance even once you get to an LBW). Although I have no 3rd party GID-meter or anything, based on data collected here we are not even using half our capability at 25 miles, which leads me to believe I could get well over 50 miles in this winter weather. If that is the case, and the average consumer drives 40-miles daily, then I would assume the average joe should be able to make do with a LEAF just fine.

PS: I have employees who drive 60 miles round-trip daily for work, obviously in the winter the LEAF would not work well for them unless they could charge at work. I've already told them if they get a BEV, I'll install a free L2 charger at work for them. We'll see if anyone bites!

 

[smkettner]

None. Zero. I still have 12 bars, they're just good for about 3 miles each.

How many bars on the battery temperature? Do you park overnight in a reletively warm garage?

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Here's what works for me (52 mile commute, 40-60MPH, heater, heated seats, heated steering wheel when needed)...

~55F and up: Charge to 80% at home, don't need to charge at work. I need 3-4 bars to get home.
~30F: Charge to 80% at home, trickle charge for 4 hours at work. I need 6 bars to get home.
~5F: Charge to 80% at home, trickle charge for 8-9 hours at work. I need 7 bars to get home.

I do not have experience with 5F, but surprised that there is not much difference in amount of power needed between 30F and 5F.
dfriedla is not able to charge at home and that is IMO biggest limitation.
I guess there is difference between bad and different. My lifetime mkWh of 6 may explain a lot

 

[Ingineer]

Anyway, to get back on point:
- Miles/kwh? about 2.5 these days, though I don't recall ever getting more than 3.7ish

That's absolutely horrible. No wonder your range stinks, you are either driving poorly, you have some kind of drag, your tires are massively low, or you are running the heat full-tilt. You absolutely must shut the climate control OFF to avoid it sucking large amounts of power. Even if you set it as "low" as it can go (60), in cold weather it can still use a lot of energy.

I have a solution for disabling the heater without losing airflow (so your windows don't fog up).

Check your tire pressure! I recommend you set them to the maximum allowed by the sidewall.

Maybe you could even have some air in your brake lines causing one of the calipers to drag. I don't think your battery is the problem here. How far can your Leaf coast on a flat road if you shift into neutral from 40 mph?

-Phil

 

[jkirkebo]

I can see how everyone's situation is different though, and I believe others in cold climates owe you a debt of gratitude for letting Nissan know about your situation. Have you been following jkirkebo here on the forum? He reportedly owns the first LEAF delivered to Norway.

Yep, and it's still going strong. 13,000 miles now, usually charges to 277-279 GIDs.

But it's true that the range is limited in the cold weather we have now. My worst case range, going 62mph in 5degF weather with the heater on full blast (3-4.5kW), is about 45 miles. I have 60 miles each way on my commute (which I only do by car 2-4 times per month), thankfully I have multiple fast chargers available after around 37 miles so in the coldest months I just do 7-8 minutes of QCing on my way there. I couldl go the whole way but would have to drive 50mph with minimal heat (1kW?).

At work I park inside (60degF) and then I have no problems going the full 60 miles home again with no QCing on the way (charged to 100% at work). Battery temperature seems to be the key here, 4-5 bars is way better than 1

When the temperature is above 32degF or so I have no problem going both ways w/o any extra charging. In the summer I even have 30% left when I arrive at work.

 

[jimcmorr]

I am a bit surprised that no one mentioned the battery heater (cold weather package) in this thread. That is supposed to kick on at 14F isn't it? Parked outside, over night, not plugged in, it would seem to me that would be a drain which would account for a fair amount of power loss.

I echo the question; why can't you plug in at home?

When I spent 2.5 weeks at a motel between selling my home in NH and closing on my new home in GA, I used a 50 ft heavy duty extension cord to plug in to an outside 120V outlet. Would it not be possible to park close to your apartment/home and run a cord out a window (with appropriate seal in the window to keep out cold wind) or an outside outlet or in the parking garage? Then use the EVSE that came with your LEAF? 120V charging may be slow but it worked out perfectly fine for me at the motel.

When I was in NH I had a 240V outlet installed outside to charge my LEAF. (I had the Nissan EVSE upgraded to operate on 240V.)

 

[EdmondLeaf]

edit
sure enough there is battery heater on 2012

 

[Shaka]

Anyway, to get back on point:
- Miles/kwh? about 2.5 these days, though I don't recall ever getting more than 3.7ish

That's absolutely horrible. No wonder your range stinks, you are either driving poorly, you have some kind of drag, your tires are massively low, or you are running the heat full-tilt. You absolutely must shut the climate control OFF to avoid it sucking large amounts of power. Even if you set it as "low" as it can go (60), in cold weather it can still use a lot of energy.

Not sure what sort of tires dfriedla has but on my car, with a set of Blizzaks, on the relatively "level" ground that is Ohio, my round-trip to work is anywhere from 2.8 to 3.2 miles/kWh. I'm not sure what the tire pressures are (keep forgetting to check it, Nissan dealer set them so they probably should/could go up a few psi). But lately the ambient temps have been 10-25 F, with wind-chill temps in the single digits and even BELOW zero (the other day wind-chills were 14-BELOW!)

Based on the location similarity between myself and dfriedla, I would say that his 2.5 m/kWh isn't THAT far off what I would expect people to see. I'm seeing more but I also use cruise-control for more than 50% of my drive to/from work. And I'm always in ECO mode, so even thought my heater is ALWAYS on, it doesn't use as much power in ECO mode obviously. My heater is only set to 68-F but it is always in AUTO mode.

As our Noway-friend says, cold weather just kills the range. But I still think dfriedla's "true" range isn't 30-miles as he claims... I bet he could go 50-miles before getting any sort of LBW....

 

[Ingineer]

I'm seeing more but I also use cruise-control for more than 50% of my drive to/from work. And I'm always in ECO mode, so even thought my heater is ALWAYS on, it doesn't use as much power in ECO mode obviously. My heater is only set to 68-F but it is always in AUTO mode.

Well, it's no wonder you are getting poor efficiency. The Cruise control is nowhere near as good at being efficient as you could be manually, and it's especially bad if there are any hills! There's a drive I often make to a friend's house North of me, and I can easily get 4 miles/kWh manually without too much effort, but if I use the cruise control it plummets to 2.9! Keep in mind the cruise is designed to hold a certain speed, not be efficient! It will apply as much power as it needs to hold the speed, and it never applies any pulse-and-glide techniques, it simply keeps power applied.

Also, keeping the heater running, even on Eco, will clobber your range. Fine if you have the capacity, but if you are coming up short on range, then you need to cut back on it's use. If I know I'm going to need to go far, I disable the heat/A/C, (using my upgrade) while still keeping the fan on. It's way more comfortable to pre-condition while still plugged in, and when cold I also use my seat heater and keep the system in recirc as much as possible.

I also can say that running my tires over-inflated, (I keep them at 50 PSI) makes a big difference in both range and handling. (I don't recommend anyone exceed the maximum pressure listed on the sidewall though!)

-Phil

 

[Shaka]

Well, it's no wonder you are getting poor efficiency. The Cruise control is nowhere near as good at being efficient as you could be manually, and it's especially bad if there are any hills! There's a drive I often make to a friend's house North of me, and I can easily get 4 miles/kWh manually without too much effort, but if I use the cruise control it plummets to 2.9! Keep in mind the cruise is designed to hold a certain speed, not be efficient! It will apply as much power as it needs to hold the speed, and it never applies any pulse-and-glide techniques, it simply keeps power applied.

Also, keeping the heater running, even on Eco, will clobber your range. Fine if you have the capacity, but if you are coming up short on range, then you need to cut back on it's use. If I know I'm going to need to go far, I disable the heat/A/C, (using my upgrade) while still keeping the fan on. It's way more comfortable to pre-condition while still plugged in, and when cold I also use my seat heater and keep the system in recirc as much as possible.

Phil, thanks for the feedback. Your posts above most others have been really informative on these forums, so just a quick sidebar, thanks!!

As for the cruise control... I only use it on the flat ground (guess I should have pointed that out) or down hills. The drive to work for me is rather level, with a big "downhill" experience where I see a fair regen amount and the cruise works great. As I drive home, I use the cruise for the first-and-last thirds. In the middle, I have to go up Cedar Hill which is a nice incline .. but once in the "Heights" area as we call it here, the ground is level enough to justify the CC-usage. On level ground, though, I would still argue that most people cannot hold as steady a clip as the CC-feature does. I find, using my dash, that on similar-area driving I can do better with the CC... but I can see where other factors might affect that... agree with you 100%

As for the heat -- my wife complains, even more so my 5-year old daughter who is in the back seat, on a booster (and sadly the rear heated seats are lost on here-- they cannot pass the heat up through her booster seat). So in order to keep my daughter warm enough for her portion of the morning commute, we just leave the heat on at 68 F in ECO. I've turned it off and found that the savings is not enough for me to justify the loss of heat. I had thought about purchasing your unit, but I don't think it will benefit me as much till spring time. I was going to see how much A/C vs "VENT" mode I'd want, and see how efficient this car is come summer in Ohio. We get a few weeks in August with temps in the 90s...

There have been just a FEW trips where I've driven the LEAF alone (no kid/wife) and I've had the heat off, and bundled up... it works okay, but even I'm getting too old for such craziness... LOL

 

[wwhitney]

pulse-and-glide techniques

Just curious, does pulse-and-glide improve efficiency in a Leaf? I thought it worked for hybrids like the Prius because it gives you a mixture of engine running at optimal RPMs and no engine, versus constantly running the engine at a lower efficiency RPMs. Does the electric motor in the Leaf have an efficiency versus RPMs profile that would favor pulse-and-glide?

Thanks, Wayne

 

[Ingineer]

As for the heat -- my wife complains, even more so my 5-year old daughter who is in the back seat, on a booster (and sadly the rear heated seats are lost on here-- they cannot pass the heat up through her booster seat). So in order to keep my daughter warm enough for her portion of the morning commute, we just leave the heat on at 68 F in ECO. I've turned it off and found that the savings is not enough for me to justify the loss of heat.

It's a matter of needing the range or not. Sounds like you are making it to your destination OK. I'm not suggesting anyone suffer in the name of efficiency, I'm saying that if you NEED the range, something has to give, and the easiest is the heater.

If you ever did get in a situation where you needed it, I know you can get 12v heated blankets, and that could be a way to keep your daughter warm. Just an idea! =)

http://www.amazon.com/Roadpro-12-Volt-Fleece-Heated-Blanket/dp/B0009Y2CFS" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-Phil

 

[jackal]

I also can say that running my tires over-inflated, (I keep them at 50 PSI) makes a big difference in both range and handling. (I don't recommend anyone exceed the maximum pressure listed on the sidewall though!)
-Phil

Do you have any visible side effects? I thought mine was high at 48 and already my mechanic was telling me that i am going to wear out the tires unnecessarily faster. I am intrigued by the idea though!

 

[TonyWilliams]

As our Noway-friend says, cold weather just kills the range. But I still think dfriedla's "true" range isn't 30-miles as he claims... I bet he could go 50-miles before getting any sort of LBW....

Could you quantify that speculation? Several posts up, I quantified 40-45 mile range at 2.5miles/kWh, which really does mean an "effective" range of 30-35 miles with 10 miles of reserve.

Yes, I predict he could increase range any number of ways, but has chosen so far not to (for whatever reason).

1- Turn the heater off if you need the range - I recommend modifying the heater to fan only defrost
2- Consider any simple and cheap 300w auxiliary electric heater, preferably with its own battery
3- Preheat the cabin while still plugged in
4- Heat the battery in a garage, or use a simple heating pad that plugs into 120v. This will aid with regen that you are also losing with a cold battery
5- Use standard techniques to increase range (max tire pressure, hypermiling, etc)

 

[TonyWilliams]

I also can say that running my tires over-inflated, (I keep them at 50 PSI) makes a big difference in both range and handling. (I don't recommend anyone exceed the maximum pressure listed on the sidewall though!)
-Phil

Do you have any visible side effects? I thought mine was high at 48 and already my mechanic was telling me that i am going to wear out the tires unnecessarily faster. I am intrigued by the idea though!

The stock Bridgestone Ecopia tires will wear better at the max tire pressue, and you get a tiny improvement in range.