Brake lights with regen...

[davewill]

I agree. Bizarre. I find the regen in ECO nowhere NEAR strong enough to worry about drivers behind me.

+1!

All this talk about needing brake lights when using ECO is worrying me about the skillset of drivers. Does anybody drive with a stick shift anymore? Trucks and many standard transmission drivers (such as myself) use the gears to slow the car down all the time.

 

[jkirkebo]

Funny, I'm waiting for him to mod the regen out of the brake pedal and put everything on the gas pedal where it belongs

I'm not going to criticize you for wearing out the battery prematurely or wasting power.. for all I know you may have a photovoltaic system

I'm not wasting any power. I'd be wasting some if I had to get my regen from the brake pedal as it is almost impossible to find the point of maximum regen/no mechanical braking. The energy meter can't be used, as the 30kW max only applies at higher speeds. In contrast, I have no problem coasting in eco, neither using power nor getting any regen. The energy meter works perfectly for this application.

As for wearing out the battery, I don't think the battery knows the difference between A-pedal regen and B-pedal regen

 

[Christopher]

I agree. Bizarre. I find the regen in ECO nowhere NEAR strong enough to worry about drivers behind me.

+1!

All this talk about needing brake lights when using ECO is worrying me about the skillset of drivers. Does anybody drive with a stick shift anymore? Trucks and many standard transmission drivers (such as myself) use the gears to slow the car down all the time.

Me too! There's no way I believe that even the people asking for this actually rely on brake lights ahead to be alerted of differences in speed. There are just so many situations where this would fail. Though I do see plenty of people who rely on using their brakes way too much on long descents –rather than downshifting, regardless of automatic or manual transmission.

Speaking of which, I got to follow a prototype Model S for a few miles between Scotts Valley and Felton last Friday evening and it was apparent (from the lack of brake lights) that their regen was stronger and more able to control downhill speed than my LEAF in Eco mode. Of course, so is a manual transmisssion!

 

[RegGuheert]

An engine slows the car down moderately. One should not need brake lights to tell that they are going faster than the car ahead of them and be able to slow down in plenty of time.

Unfortunately, there are way too many people on the roads who follow dangerously close. IMO, it is better to give an obvious visual warning of the braking force being applied than to wait for the following driver to perceive they are getting closer. The light eliminates the delay in alerting the other driver. There are plenty of moving rear-end accidents that might be prevented by such an enhancement.

Speaking of which, I got to follow a prototype Model S for a few miles between Scotts Valley and Felton last Friday evening and it was apparent (from the lack of brake lights) that their regen was stronger and more able to control downhill speed than my LEAF in Eco mode.

Long, steep grades like 17 between San Jose and Santa Cruz are agood example where this would be useful.

Of course, so is a manual transmisssion!

I see no need to apply the limitations of ICEs to EVs. A signal to let the following driver know that a braking force is being applied is a very useful thing.

FWIW, I don't thing an accelerometer output is useful for brake light application. You can still be accelerating and applying a significant braking force.

Edit: Fixed egregious spelling errors!

 

[kubel]

I've never felt that regen was so strong on the LEAF so as to warrant a brake light. It's feels much the same using the engine to brake a manual transmission car- not even as harsh as that.

 

[thankyouOB]

I generally have a concern that if I am slowing rapidly that those behind me should have some warning. Others here have expressed that they use D when in traffic so that they will have to use their brakes to slow down in traffic, thus warning drivers behind them.

Given this, perhaps it makes sense to also have the brake lights come on beyond a certain level of regenerative braking, even if the driver does not have their foot on the brake pedal. That seems to match the intent of the brake lights.

Perhaps it could come on beyond 25 kW of regeneration and go off below about 20, giving it a fair amount of hysteresis so that it does not flicker on and off to quickly.

I can imagine this might eventually become a requirement as future EVs may have significantly more regenerative braking power than the current crop.

Thoughts?

it is the same thing that happens if you slow using a manual transmission and downshift.
I suppose in this day and age we might want to have added warnings for all those distracted drivers.
I dont see the eco mode slow as that much of a special case.

 

[MrFish]

Interesting arguments for and against brake lights for regen. My first hand experience being rear ended in my leaf a few months ago where the guy stated in his report that he didn't realize that I was slowing down as much as I actually was, as I was decelerating via ECO regen. It was at 4:30 am and still dark and possible contributed due to decreased visibility. He was still found at fault by my insurance carrier, I was still without my car for a week, had to make several trips to the repair shop and was otherwise inconvenienced for "being in the right." I firmly believe that having a regen brake light would have helped to compensate for the other drivers lack of driving skills. If I could add it I would if it could possibly help prevent another event. I also agree that I believe it is only a matter of time until these lights are required by the insurance carriers.

 

[surfingslovak]

As far as the car turning off if I open the door - I absolutely do not like that. Not knowing all of the circumstances that the Active-E turns itself off if you open the door, there have been many times where I put the car in park, hop out to grab something and come back in and go - all with my wife in the car and the radio and air on. I think the LEAF does a fine job of beeping at me and showing me warnings when I leave the car with it left on.

Eric, point taken. I have to admit that Michael Thwaite's video didn't describe what happened properly. The car did not cut all the power, it merely put itself to the park position. Both the AC and the radio stayed on. It was in the same state that the Leaf is in when you push the start button, but don't press the brake pedal. The vehicle is powered on, but not ready to drive.

 

[padamson1]

Interesting arguments for and against brake lights for regen. My first hand experience being rear ended in my leaf a few months ago where the guy stated in his report that he didn't realize that I was slowing down as much as I actually was, as I was decelerating via ECO regen. It was at 4:30 am and still dark and possible contributed due to decreased visibility. He was still found at fault by my insurance carrier, I was still without my car for a week, had to make several trips to the repair shop and was otherwise inconvenienced for "being in the right." I firmly believe that having a regen brake light would have helped to compensate for the other drivers lack of driving skills. If I could add it I would if it could possibly help prevent another event. I also agree that I believe it is only a matter of time until these lights are required by the insurance carriers.

Bummer. However I think this particular accident was more of a function of 4:30am and the driver not being alert. While I'd have to agree that in this case a brake light might've helped, I think he probably would've just as easily hit someone who braked suddenly.

If brake lights signaled for even the minor deceleration of ECO, I believe there would be more over-reactions and followed by chain reactions (first guy decelerates slightly, 2nd applies brakes, third applies heavy brakes, third mashes brakes, etc) resulting in just as many accidents caused as avoided. Brake lights are there to indicate a sudden stop, e.g the case you don't have time to react to the change in the following distance. If one can't observe that the distance is closing between themselves & the car in front of them when there is only a mild deceleration (as MrFish performed above) then one is either tailgating, driving too fast, or not paying attention. In either case, brake lights won't help them when the car in front performs an emergency stop so they're going to be in an accident anyway. It's just a matter of when...and how severe.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I suppose all ICE cars with manual transmissions and high compression need brake lights on the motor? By the time the LEAF has any significant slowing from regen the brake lights are on because the friction brakes are used far more then people realize. The off pedal regen is so pathetically low it is not going to cause an accident unless the person behind you was already going to hit you, brake lights or not. This is really another one of those nonsense threads. If we were discussing a car with an ACP drive and adjustable regen it would be another story. Drivers simple are not going to be taken off guard by a lack of brake lights on a LEAF, one could only wish the regen were this good.

 

[ztanos]

Can I kick the dead horse too? Manual cars slow down with their engines. :lol: Sorry couldn't help myself.

Brake Brake Brake. I want to break my monitor every time I see it break. Sorry, grammar nazi escaped for a minute.

 

[planet4ever]

Brake Brake Brake. I want to break my monitor every time I see it break. Sorry, grammar nazi escaped for a minute.

Yeah, I know the feeling. These spelling errors bug me, too. But in this case, if you don't apply a braking force you are likely to encounter a breaking force at the front of the car, and if you apply too much braking force with no brake lights you may soon feel a breaking force behind you. :shock:

Ray

 

[RegGuheert]

Brake Brake Brake. I want to break my monitor every time I see it break. Sorry, grammar nazi escaped for a minute.

Yeah, I know the feeling. These spelling errors bug me, too. But in this case, if you don't apply a braking force you are likely to encounter a breaking force at the front of the car, and if you apply too much braking force with no brake lights you may soon feel a breaking force behind you. :shock:

Ray

Sorry about that, guys! I went back and cleaned up my painful spelling errors! Did I get them all?

 

[Herm]

English is a living language, we are just seeing evolution in action

 

[ztanos]

It's fine, you aren't the only one. I didn't mean to pick on you. You were in the wrong place at the wrong time. My co-workers had sent me a list of emails and they were torturous. I turned to this site and just snapped. Again, I apologize, carry on.

 

[Nubo]

English is a living language, we are just seeing evolution in action

So its evolution going on their, and us without breaks. Hope we have some good bumbers. Otherwise.... Walla! Lightening strike's !

 

[ztanos]

English is a living language, we are just seeing evolution in action

So its evolution going on their, and us without breaks. Hope we have some good bumbers. Otherwise.... Walla! Lightening strike's !

Everytime I hear the word evolution, it makes me think of the Homer Simpson evolution poster.

http://thesimpsonsbr.comze.com/upload/galeria/images/homersapiens.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[davewill]

It's fine, you aren't the only one. I didn't mean to pick on you. You were in the wrong place at the wrong time. My co-workers had sent me a list of emails and they were torturous. I turned to this site and just snapped. Again, I apologize, carry on.

Personally, I was just happy the title didn't contain the error.

 

[ztanos]

:lol:

It's fine, you aren't the only one. I didn't mean to pick on you. You were in the wrong place at the wrong time. My co-workers had sent me a list of emails and they were torturous. I turned to this site and just snapped. Again, I apologize, carry on.

Personally, I was just happy the title didn't contain the error.