Blink / Rav4 Blows Out a Contactor Pin (with gory pics)

[MikeD]

Palmermd: Given, any EVSE's J1772 connector should be expected to be manufactured to work properly with any EVs J1772 inlet. However, a given connector should be expected to work properly only up to its rated maximum amps. A "J1772 30a connector" should not be expected to work properly at 70a or 80a. I would expect only a "J1772 70a (or higher rated) connector" to work properly up to 70a. Likewise a "J1772 70a connector" should not be expected to work properly at 80a. I would not think that, say, a 70a rated EVSE manufacturer would attempt to use a 30a rated connector for it.

BTW note that an XXa rated EVSE should communicate with the charger of any EV it is plugged into saying in effect: "Hey, don't try to draw any more than XXa". If, say, a defective charger does try to draw more than XXa, there should be at least the circuit breaker connected to the EVSE that trips.

 

[MikeD]

Ingineer: Would a useful experiment be to reverse the two power pins in the Blink's handle, retest, and see if that affects the thermograph?

It would also be interesting to test another Blink handle or AeroVironment handle (or that of any other 30a rated EVSE) to compare.

 

[palmermd]

Palmermd: Given, any EVSE's J1772 connector should be expected to be manufactured to work properly with any EVs J1772 inlet. However, a given connector should be expected to work properly only up to its rated maximum amps. A "J1772 30a connector" should not be expected to work properly at 70a or 80a. I would expect only a "J1772 70a (or higher rated) connector" to work properly up to 70a. Likewise a "J1772 70a connector" should not be expected to work properly at 80a. I would not think that, say, a 70a rated EVSE manufacturer would attempt to use a 30a rated connector for it.

BTW note that an XXa rated EVSE should communicate with the charger of any EV it is plugged into saying in effect: "Hey, don't try to draw any more than XXa". If, say, a defective charger does try to draw more than XXa, there should be at least the circuit breaker connected to the EVSE that trips.

except that the J1772 standard for the plug and receptacle is the same no matter what current rating you have on the EVSE or the car charger. Only the wiring to/from the connector changes.

For example a car that can only draw 16 amp for its charger can use smaller gauge wire on the receptacle because that is all it can draw. It can still connect to an EVSE with a 70 amp rating and wiring, it just want draw any more than the charger can consume.

On the other end, if you have 20kW capable charger onboard you would connect much larger wiring to the receptacle and the charger would talk to the EVSE to determine how much to draw. If the EVSE was only capable of 16 amps, then the charger will limit its draw to 16 amps, and the EVSE will be wired with smaller wiring on the plug side of the mating connectors.

Now Phil's post brought up another question. Up until now I thought the problem was with the blink plug side of the J1772 mating junction, but his last post leads me to believe that the problem might be with the receptacle used on the RAV4. It will be interesting to know which is the source of the problem. Perhaps he only talked about the heat on the receptacle because that is where he took the readings.

 

[DaveEV]

Now Phil's post brought up another question. Up until now I thought the problem was with the blink plug side of the J1772 mating junction, but his last post leads me to believe that the problem might be with the receptacle used on the RAV4. It will be interesting to know which is the source of the problem. Perhaps he only talked about the heat on the receptacle because that is where he took the readings.

Phil clearly stated that he thinks that the Blink connector is the problem at this point in time:

I think it's safe to say the Blink has a problem on one side. I will take it apart later for inspection.

Looks like Tony was right in blaming Blink for the issue. We will see for sure shortly.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

blink is definitely the defective end of this issue, but not sure I can agree with Toyota and their total trust of the charging source or any other car for that matter. would the LEAF detect anything amiss and shutdown?

 

[Nubo]

Ok, I've confirmed the problem is 100% on the Blink side. I constructed a J1772 extension using a brand-new 70A ITT inlet connected to a brand-new 70A handle. I then connected this to the same blink and then to the Rav4.

Here's a thermograph of the same Rav4 inlet after charging 60 minutes at 30A with the new handle: (Evenly balanced and only 88 degrees max)


Here's the new 70A inlet connected to the same Blink, not it looks almost the same as the Rav4 did in my first test!


Here's the Blink handle:


I think it's safe to say the Blink has a problem on one side. I will take it apart later for inspection.

-Phil

Nice test. What was the orientation of the plug/external receptacle? Did it have the same kind of cable-tug as it would normally experience at the car's receptacle? Wondering if it's more of an orientation issue or materials/internal connections.

 

[gbarry42]

What is the nature of the black area at the tip of the pins? Metal is notoriously difficult to photograph, and images are hard to interpret. Nice that we get to see one without having to peer down into the connector bore.

 

[Nubo]

What is the nature of the black area at the tip of the pins? Metal is notoriously difficult to photograph, and images are hard to interpret. Nice that we get to see one without having to peer down into the connector bore.

the self-cleaning mechanism? :?:

 

[TEG]

Plastic coated tips to keep fingertips from making contact?

 

[pchilds]

Deleted, no longer relevant.

 

[MikeD]

palmermd: You wrote "except that the J1772 standard for the plug and receptacle is the same no matter what current rating you have on the EVSE or the car charger.". I don't think that is correct.

The J1772 standard clearly states the diameter of the inlet power pins to be a standard 3.6mm, but more ambiguously refers to its current rating as "up to 80a". I assume that by not saying "80a" they were implying "up to the rating of the EVSE, but no more than 80a".

More to point the section labeled "Temperature Rise" in the associated UL 2251 (Standard for Plugs, Receptacles, and Couplers for Electric Vehicles) reads in part "The temperature rise [for the coupler]... shall not exceed 50 deg C when the device is carrying its maximum rated current". I interpret "maximum rated current" to not mean 80a, but for example 30a for the currently most common EVSE. Once a connector is manufactured in an 30a EVSE, it is never going to be subjected to more than 30a in that EVSE, it is never likely to be moved to a higher rated EVSE, so what sense does it make to be rated any higher, let alone 80a?

This UL 2251 standard is interesting (I had to look it up to make this post) because it itemizes a large number of tests this are performed on couplers -- not unexpected, but comforting to see in detail.

The ball is in your court...

 

[palmermd]

palmermd: You wrote "except that the J1772 standard for the plug and receptacle is the same no matter what current rating you have on the EVSE or the car charger.". I don't think that is correct.

The J1772 standard clearly states the diameter of the inlet power pins to be a standard 3.6mm, but more ambiguously refers to its current rating as "up to 80a". I assume that by not saying "80a" they were implying "up to the rating of the EVSE, but no more than 80a".

More to point the section labeled "Temperature Rise" in the associated UL 2251 (Standard for Plugs, Receptacles, and Couplers for Electric Vehicles) reads in part "The temperature rise [for the coupler]... shall not exceed 50 deg C when the device is carrying its maximum rated current". I interpret "maximum rated current" to not mean 80a, but for example 30a for the currently most common EVSE. Once a connector is manufactured in an 30a EVSE, it is never going to be subjected to more than 30a in that EVSE, it is never likely to be moved to a higher rated EVSE, so what sense does it make to be rated any higher, let alone 80a?

This UL 2251 standard is interesting (I had to look it up to make this post) because it itemizes a large number of tests this are performed on couplers -- not unexpected, but comforting to see in detail.

The ball is in your court...

what ball? your entire post seems to be in agreement with mine.

 

[GRA]

Ok, I've confirmed the problem is 100% on the Blink side. I constructed a J1772 extension using a brand-new 70A ITT inlet connected to a brand-new 70A handle. I then connected this to the same blink and then to the Rav4.

Here's a thermograph of the same Rav4 inlet after charging 60 minutes at 30A with the new handle: (Evenly balanced and only 88 degrees max)

Here's the new 70A inlet connected to the same Blink, not it looks almost the same as the Rav4 did in my first test!

Here's the Blink handle:

I think it's safe to say the Blink has a problem on one side. I will take it apart later for inspection.

-Phil

Phil, I hope you forward your thermal photos to Ecotality (and maybe UL?) with an explanation. Based on their past history I expect Ecotality to do little or nothing, but at least they can't say they weren't given a heads-up of a possible wide-spread problem.

 

[LEAFer]

The strange apparent "disagreement" between MikeD and palmermd, rests, I think, in the possibility that MikeD is not familiar with the (not numerous but nevertheless commerically available and installed) 70A versions of (for example) Clipper Creek's CS-100 and TS-70. Naturally, they *MUST* be equipped with the higher rated cable and J-plug, so that they may serve EVs such as Teslas (Roadster & Model S), Mini-E (returned), Rav4EV, etc. These stations get regular use at ampacities between 32A & 70A.

For an example of such stations, see http://www.evchargernews.com/regions/ch-tesla-tesla.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; The majority of the TS-70 configurations (Tesla Roadster proprietary plug) have now been changed to J1772-2009 standard plug supporting the same ampacity as before. There are others (this site only lists CA & AZ).

(For specifics, read the comments of one for those stations: http://www.evchargermaps.com/?SiteID=93454_2&Want=SPI%20LPI%20AVC%20OC&Zoom=17" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false

Thank you MikeD for pointing out that UL 2251 document. My opinion: the 50 degree maximum temperature rise applies for any and all ampacity up to 80A.

 

[Ingineer]

Phil, I hope you forward your thermal photos to Ecotality (and maybe UL?) with an explanation. Based on their past history I expect Ecotality to do little or nothing, but at least they can't say they weren't given a heads-up of a possible wide-spread problem.

I have no intention of contacting Ecotality, as I agree, they will do nothing, or worse, send me a cease and desist letter. Anyone that wants to can feel free to forward them the pictures though. In their defense, there has been only 2 documented problems, and since I can't examine Tony's, I can't prove his. Seems like a big coincidence if it's only happening to us and nobody else, maybe this is happening and they are just quietly replacing the handles of those affected.

If the 2013 Leaf gets released in large numbers to EV project participants and the 7.2kW load burns a lot of connectors, I'm sure we'll hear about it then.

If you happen to be the owner of a EV charging with a blink, especially one pulling more than 5kW, it would be cheap insurance to buy an IR thermometer for $20 and take a temp check of your inlet once in a while.

-Phil

 

[TonyWilliams]

If the 2013 Leaf gets released in large numbers to EV project participants and the 7.2kW load burns a lot of connectors, I'm sure we'll hear about it then.

Blink is everywhere in Phoenix, so next summer, while the batteries are sweltering, the connectors might be melting, too.

 

[MikeD]

Ingineer: You haven't yet shown any out-of-spec temperatures yet. How can anyone therefore conclude that the Blink must be using defective connectors or anything else? Granted you showed that the temperatures with the 30a rated Blink are higher than the 70a rated Other Brand (which one should expect to be thermally more conductive -- which you demonstrated), and that the Blink temperature rise is not symmetrical as one would expect, but you still haven't proven your Blink handle is defective, have you?

 

[TonyWilliams]

I did get my car back today. No cost to me for the week with a rental Camry or the repairs to the Rav4. No excuses of "that's normal"; just fixed, cleaned, recharged and returned.

Thanks to Toyota Engineering for getting the part to the dealer promptly, and personally examining my car and thanks to my dealer and service guy, Bob Moore, who kept the ball rolling at Toyota Carlsbad.

I don't yet have an operational EVSE, so hopefully one of the several I have in the garage will become functional soon. Probably the Clipper Creek, which I'm putting an ITT 75 amp handle on. Also, I sent the mother board in for reflashing to send a 40 amp pilot signal (for the Tesla charger on the Rav4 at 30mph recharge rate on 240v).

I take that back; I do have the little Toyota/Panasonic EVSE that came with the Rav4, already upgraded to 240v / 12a service (about 10mph recharge rate). That should take about a week to fill 'er up.

Right now, I'm enjoying pizza where there just happens to be a Walgreens with a 208v / 30a EVSE. Beggars like me can't be too picky at 20mph recharge rate.

 

[MikeD]

LEAFer: I was objecting to what I thought palmermd was trying to say, not what he actually wrote in that sentence I quoted in my Dec 03, 2012 8:19 pm post. I should have added his next sentence "Only the wiring to/from the connector changes." in that quote of what I didn't think was correct. I thought he was trying to say that the connector should be interchangeable between, say, a 30a EVSE and a 70a EVSE. This is what I think is incorrect (but I very well may have misunderstood his intent), but in any case we seem to be in agreement now.

Were you able to find the pdf's for UL 2251 (and J1772) by searching google? What I found were not the latest versions, but still useful.

 

[surfingslovak]

Right now, I'm enjoying pizza where there just happens to be a Walgreens with a 208v / 30a EVSE. Beggars like me can't be too picky at 20mph recharge rate.

EVSE tourism, and you of all people. :lol: I feel nostalgic about the early days of Leaf ownership already. Charging in the public was almost always an adventure. That said, there is apparently someone in Vacaville, who managed to hook up his van to an EVSE, and is essentially running an indefinite charging session. Good luck with the OpenEVSE and ClipperCreek projects. I hope to be able to attend the next workshop.