Benefits of hydrogen cars?

[GRA]

Hi all,
This section is very helpful in gathering details about the benefits of hydrogen cars. Thanks for sharing this type of useful and informative articles..

If you want to get in a little deeper, a good overview of the issues that will delay if not prevent the adoption of hydrogen fuel cells is the book "The Hype about Hydrogen", by Joseph Romm, 2004. http://www.amazon.com/The-Hype-About-Hydrogen-Fiction/dp/1559637048" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Not sure why amazon lists it as fiction, as it's not. Romm's bio is here:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Hype-About-Hydrogen-Fiction/dp/1559637048" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As I stated earlier, I don't see hydrogen fuel cells for cars being viable unless we have on-site electrolysis of water at fueling points, which eliminates the transport issues of low density for road transport and leakage from pipes. On-site electrolysis will likely only be economic when we have an excess of variable renewables on the grid, which would otherwise have to be turned off to prevent voltage/frequency problems, i.e. use it or lose it.

Someone mentioned 3,600 PSI as a typical storage pressure, although they may have been referring to CNG. My understanding is that current vehicle tanks are either 5,000 or 10,000 PSI, and that progress is being made on using tank linings that adsorb H2, eliminating the need for high pressure storage. See http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/fct_h2_storage.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, while I don't think H2 fuel cells are going to be economically and environmentally viable anytime soon, I believe we definitely should continue with development and not lock in yet to a single technology (batteries).

Edit Just found this at GCC:

"ITM Power reports its estimated cost of producing hydrogen via electrolysis down significantly from last year"

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/07/itmpower-20130722.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GRA]

..
being that a FCEV car is likely to be very expensive, lets compare it with the Tesla Model S to see which one wins:

• Driving Range - its about a wash between the two.
• Acceleration Performance - Tesla Wins
• Cost of Fuel - Tesla Wins
• Cost of the car - Tesla Wins
• Environmentally Friendly - Probably a wash depending on how you calculate it.
• Time to refuel - Tesla Wins (using battery swap) Supercharger isn't that much further behind.
• Fueling Infrastructure - Tesla Wins

..

Couple more..

• Powertrain longevity - Tesla Wins

I say this because there's good evidence now that Tesla batteries last a long time, and fuel cells have historically been plagued by premature "poisoning" due to fuel that is not 100% pure.

"If even minute quantities of carbon monoxide are present in that gas, it can poison the platinum catalysts that are key to driving the fuel cell."

There's work being done on that - see the article

"ACAL Energy FlowCath fuel cell reaches 10,000 hours runtime on automotive durability test; 2x US DOE 2017 target"

at

http://www.greencarcongress.com/fuel_cells/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That link calls up all Fuel Cell related articles.

 

[adric22]

By the way. Can anyone explain to me what the difference is between a fuel and an energy carrier? Why is gasoline not an energy carrier?

 

[GRA]

By the way. Can anyone explain to me what the difference is between a fuel and an energy carrier? Why is gasoline not an energy carrier?

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_energy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[richard]

There's work being done on that - see the article

"ACAL Energy FlowCath fuel cell reaches 10,000 hours runtime on automotive durability test; 2x US DOE 2017 target"

at

http://www.greencarcongress.com/fuel_cells/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That link calls up all Fuel Cell related articles.

That article seems to be talking about general degradation. Both batteries and fuel cells experience degradation over time. Only fuel cells, however, can be poisoned irreversibly by a batch of bad fuel.

 

[Nubo]

By the way. Can anyone explain to me what the difference is between a fuel and an energy carrier? Why is gasoline not an energy carrier?

They are both energy carriers in a real sense. The difference is in timeframe. The energy content in gasoline results from a capture of solar energy by plants many years ago. Unfortunately, the store of energy which took many millions of years to accumulate, is being consumed in just a few hundred years and the millions of years worth of accumulated Carbon is also being released as CO2 into the atmosphere in just a short period of time.

(Gasoline can be produced directly from grown crops, such as algae, shortening the time lag and the Carbon is balanced)

Hydrogen is not found on Earth in its elemental form. We have to manufacture it. Which makes very clear that it is carrying energy, not an energy source.

 

[GRA]

There's work being done on that - see the article

"ACAL Energy FlowCath fuel cell reaches 10,000 hours runtime on automotive durability test; 2x US DOE 2017 target"

at

http://www.greencarcongress.com/fuel_cells/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That link calls up all Fuel Cell related articles.

That article seems to be talking about general degradation. Both batteries and fuel cells experience degradation over time. Only fuel cells, however, can be poisoned irreversibly by a batch of bad fuel.

It had been some time since I read it, so I didn't recall the details. Thanks for pointing that out. Still, if you can build a battery or a fuel cell that will last for the life of the car, that's a very good thing (assuming it's affordable).

 

[DaveEV]

Hydrogen stations run $1,000,000 -$2,000,000 each.

How many QC's would that buy?

IIRC, Tesla says that it costs them about $500k to install a supercharger array. They are typically installing stations with up to 10 plugs these days. So I think it's pretty safe to say that a single station could be installed for $50k with some economy of scale, so 20 QC plugs per $1M.

This DOE study from last year says that a large station built after 2016 would handle about 1,500 kg/day and cost $5M. http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/review12/an020_melaina_2012_o.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

1 kg of hydrogen contains about 33 kWh of energy and fuel cells are about 50% efficient, so you get about 16.5 kWh usable out of each kg so a 1,500 kg/day station would be enough generate the equivalent of about 25 MWh of energy.

Since hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are simply EV drivetrains with FC range extenders, the 25 MWh is directly comparable to electricity.

So 1,500 kg/day is the equivalent of charging EV at appx a constant MW (1,000 kW). $5M would buy you 100 QC plugs at $50k/ea and if each plug can do 50 kW that is a peak power capacity of 5 MW.

Looks like EVs still win in terms of charging infrastructure cost.

 

[adric22]

By the way. Can anyone explain to me what the difference is between a fuel and an energy carrier? Why is gasoline not an energy carrier?

They are both energy carriers in a real sense. The difference is in timeframe.

OK.. That makes sense and is essentially what I thought. Since one of gasoline's main components is hydrogen and since I knew we could artificially create gasoline or hydrogen, and it takes energy to create either one.. I figured both were energy carriers.

 

[smkettner]

The main benefit goes to the salary of the research people. The new breakthrough just around the corner will keep the funding from expiring.
Someday hydrogen might become a workable solution and IMO BEV will be widespread before the logistics and economics of hydrogen are worked out.

 

[GRA]

Hydrogen stations run $1,000,000 -$2,000,000 each.

How many QC's would that buy?

IIRC, Tesla says that it costs them about $500k to install a supercharger array. They are typically installing stations with up to 10 plugs these days. So I think it's pretty safe to say that a single station could be installed for $50k with some economy of scale, so 20 QC plugs per $1M.

This DOE study from last year says that a large station built after 2016 would handle about 1,500 kg/day and cost $5M. http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/review12/an020_melaina_2012_o.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

1 kg of hydrogen contains about 33 kWh of energy and fuel cells are about 50% efficient, so you get about 16.5 kWh usable out of each kg so a 1,500 kg/day station would be enough generate the equivalent of about 25 MWh of energy.

Since hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are simply EV drivetrains with FC range extenders, the 25 MWh is directly comparable to electricity.

So 1,500 kg/day is the equivalent of charging EV at appx a constant MW (1,000 kW). $5M would buy you 100 QC plugs at $50k/ea and if each plug can do 50 kW that is a peak power capacity of 5 MW.

Looks like EVs still win in terms of charging infrastructure cost.

Good analysis. Of course, you're comparing a claim of how much it actually costs a private company, moving much quicker than most of its competitors are, to do something, versus the estimate of a government agency. Without knowing how honest Tesla is, or what values went into the government estimate (for instance, do the contractors have to pay prevailing union wages, as is the case with Ecotality installs under the EV Project?), or how good a said agency is at forecasting the future, who knows how accurate the comparison is? At this point, I'd be very wary of putting a lot of faith in cost predictions that far out on a technology that's been seeing a lot more R&D money in the past few years. Hell, I'm wary of battery cost estimates that far out.

 

[smkettner]

Also the Tesla installation includes the power neutral supply source.
Does the hydrogen station produce the fuel on site? and is it self powered?

 

[GRA]

Also the Tesla installation includes the power neutral supply source.
Does the hydrogen station produce the fuel on site? and is it self powered?

Um,are you sure the Supercharger cost claim includes the PV system? AFAIK almost none of the Superchargers currently include a PV array, let alone the storage batteries which will almost certainly be needed to avoid major hits to the grid and keep the costs down once these things are getting regular use outside of weekends.

Good points on what's included or not in the H2 fueling station costs. We really need a lot more info to draw reasonable cost comparison estimates.

 

[Smidge204]

Good analysis. Of course, you're comparing a claim of how much it actually costs a private company, moving much quicker than most of its competitors are, to do something, versus the estimate of a government agency. Without knowing how honest Tesla is, or what values went into the government estimate (for instance, do the contractors have to pay prevailing union wages, as is the case with Ecotality installs under the EV Project?), or how good a said agency is at forecasting the future, who knows how accurate the comparison is? At this point, I'd be very wary of putting a lot of faith in cost predictions that far out on a technology that's been seeing a lot more R&D money in the past few years. Hell, I'm wary of battery cost estimates that far out.

As someone who is involved in building CNG stations that receive no small sum of federal money for their construction, allow me to chime in here.

The government does nothing but administer grants and keep track of the books. In our case the main was of cash is given to an intermediate, local, non-government administrative coalition which then redistributes to local businesses, like the one I work for, who hire the contractors to build the infrastructure. We report to the coalition, who in turn reports back to the DoE, just to make sure everyone is satisfying the conditions of the grant.

I'm pretty confident that, with a few notable exceptions, this is the normal mode of operation.

Point is, "the government" basically does jack squat. Every time someone complains about "the government" wasting money or running things poorly, etc (usually with the implication that the private sector could do better) I have to laugh a bit because it's actually 99% private sector entities who are doing the work. It's become a bit of a sore spot over the past few years...
=Smidge=

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

So, how many H stations would it take to make a viable system? And for each one, we could have 100 QC's? And still have the ability to fuel at home?

If there are benefits to H cars, certainly the benefits of QCing outweigh them.

 

[Pipcecil]

The government does nothing but administer grants and keep track of the books. In our case the main was of cash is given to an intermediate, local, non-government administrative coalition which then redistributes to local businesses, like the one I work for, who hire the contractors to build the infrastructure. We report to the coalition, who in turn reports back to the DoE, just to make sure everyone is satisfying the conditions of the grant.

I'm pretty confident that, with a few notable exceptions, this is the normal mode of operation.

Point is, "the government" basically does jack squat. Every time someone complains about "the government" wasting money or running things poorly, etc (usually with the implication that the private sector could do better) I have to laugh a bit because it's actually 99% private sector entities who are doing the work. It's become a bit of a sore spot over the past few years...
=Smidge=

I will completely comfirm this statement. I work for Council of Goverments/MPO for Dallas-Fort Worth. And we are the intermediate that funnels the cash for these grants. These grants range from air quality to sustainability and research. We just funnel the money to local goverments/contractors for work related to the grant and keep the books and do monthly reports back to the feds. Even if the money is funneled to the local goverments for some improvement (say sidewalk sustainability improvements), it goes straight to a contractor with little invovlement from the local goverment.