Bay Area: Second meter from PG&E

[Deleted member 459]

planet4ever,

Thanks for those numbers, they're well crunched. Not having empirical kWh measurements in hand (yet!) I was working backwards from the worst case; what if you were to deep cycle the car (or two) on a daily basis? (Not a good idea in terms of practice I know, but it works to stress-test the concept. Imagine if we were talking about Tesla Roadsters here with their ginormous 56 kWh packs.) It still strikes me as being miserly of PG&E to even bother with high tiered rates during off-peak graveyard usage considering it's mostly energy that's would otherwise go to waste.

Just to push the envelope, let's say we were deep-cycling a RAV4EV which, in theory (240V x 30A x 6.5 hrs) = 46.8kWh. And to keep things simple, let's keep reusing those same summer (weekday) rates:

9.75 kWh * $0.05995 = $0.5845 (Tier 1 & 2)
5.25 kWh * $.24907 = $1.3076175 (Tier 3)
31.8 kWh * $0.28907 = $9.192426 (Tier 4 & above)

= $11.0845435/day. Multiply by 30, and you get $332.54/mo for a total range of, let's say, 80*30 = 2400 miles. Or about 13.9 cents/mi.

Then, consider your typical ICE car. 2400 mi / 30MPG = 80 gallons of gas, at $4 = 320. Or about 13.3 cents/mi. Almost the same, innit! I guess I stand convinced - even the worst case won't break the bank. Now, to go recrunch this on E9-A assuming that household usage has eaten up the baseline...

Thanks,

-djh

 

[CASF]

Does anybody know how much is second meter installation could cost?

 

[leaf561]

Does anybody know how much is second meter installation could cost?

I was planning to install the second meter, but after I got selected in the EV Project, I decided to wait on it.

I had got a very decent estimate from Captive Fuels ( 650 450-3751) for $2145, which also included installing the charging station:

1-Meter Main Square D NEMA 3 Rating outdoor weatherproof.
EMT 1” Conduit or Romex 8/3 Copper: #8 THHN, #2 THWN
1-Panel 125A Load Center and Car Charger hook up.

I was about to do cash & carry from AV for the EVSE.

 

[Bassman]

[/quote]
One other variable you haven't included is the daily charge for the second meter. That works out to about $80/year.[/quote]

I have the PG&E E9B rate in Angels Camp and the meter charge only happens if you don't use any electricity. I never get charged for the meter and my bill for the past two months charging to 100% from 1 to 2 bars has been about $19.00/month.

 

[waitingforaleaf]

Well, I have what's likely to be the "easiest" install for an E9b (meter is connected to outside wall of garage with the electrical panel inside the garage about 25 ft away) and was estimated $1000 for install of the meter (+ whatever PG&E charges). With my predicted usage, I think I'll break even with E9a after 5 years. Not so sure if I want to deal with the extra hassle involved since there's always the chance I'll actually move out prior to this break even point.

 

[Taxidan]

I got a second meter installed with permit in San Francisco with permit for about $2K, plus $250 to Pg&E. Left my existing servic alone, get TOU electricity overnight for under .07 per, plus I get to easily read the meter to know exactly what I'm using every day, and a bill that tells me exactly how much I've spent on "fuel". Easy!

 

[mxp]

Well, I have what's likely to be the "easiest" install for an E9b (meter is connected to outside wall of garage with the electrical panel inside the garage about 25 ft away) and was estimated $1000 for install of the meter (+ whatever PG&E charges). With my predicted usage, I think I'll break even with E9a after 5 years. Not so sure if I want to deal with the extra hassle involved since there's always the chance I'll actually move out prior to this break even point.

Hi waitingforaleaf,

Could u pls send some pics of what your 2nd meter install looks like?
I agree with Taxidan that having a 2nd meter helps simplify the usage reporting more accurately.

PS: Just wondering if anyone here have issues with the Gas Meter clearances in your installs.

 

[waitingforaleaf]

Can't send any pics as I have decided not to get the 2nd meter at the moment. Will cope with E9a when the Leaf finally comes in and see how things go first.

 

[mxp]

Can't send any pics as I have decided not to get the 2nd meter at the moment. Will cope with E9a when the Leaf finally comes in and see how things go first.

Just remember that once you switch to E-9A, you cannot go back to E-1 assuming you found out E-9A isn't right for your needs. Also, at that time, your only option is to move up to E-9B.

Again, I am 95% sure, but do confirm it with your PG&E rep.

 

[Spies]

Just remember that once you switch to E-9A, you cannot go back to E-1 assuming you found out E-9A isn't right for your needs. Also, at that time, your only option is to move up to E-9B.

Again, I am 95% sure, but do confirm it with your PG&E rep.

Up until very recently E-9A or E-9B was mandatory for someone that had an electric vehicle. This was changed to optional around the beginning of this year. Now as far a changing from E-1 to E-9A or E-9B and then wanting to go back to E-1 PG&E can impose a one year waiting period from what I understand. I certainly don't think this applies for switching between E-9A to E-9B however.

 

[planet4ever]

Just remember that once you switch to E-9A, you cannot go back to E-1 assuming you found out E-9A isn't right for your needs. Also, at that time, your only option is to move up to E-9B.

Again, I am 95% sure, but do confirm it with your PG&E rep.

I seriously doubt that. What is true, and does make sense, is what Spies said, and can be generalized. For any schedule which has different rates between summer and winter, PG&E is not going to let you switch multiple times per year in order to cherry-pick the best rates. One other thing you might have been thinking of is that if you switch from E7 to E9 you won't be able to go back, but that is because E7 is being phased out.

Ray

 

[mxp]

I have been monitoring a couple of other similar threads and I cannot understand why the majority of eTEC EVSE recipients do not see the benefit in installing the 2nd meter?

There is a tax credit up to $2,000 if you paid out of pocket to install the 2nd meter. So for those of you who already got the eTEC charger installed for free. So why isn't anyone jumping on the 2nd meter install??

2010 FEDERAL Alternative Fuel Vehicle Refueling Property Credit
Short Description: An income tax credit equal to 50% of the cost of electric vehicle recharging equipment
capped at $2,000 for individuals and $50,000 for businesses

Beneficiary: The party who places the equipment in service.

Type of Incentive: Non-refundable Income Tax Credit

Effective Dates: Current benefit, expires 12/31/2010.

Value of Benefit: An Income Tax Credit of up to $2,000 for an individual and up to $50,000 for a business.
The credit is computed and claimed on Federal Form 8911.

Full Description:
A tax credit is allowed equal to 50% of the cost of any qualified alternative fuel vehicle refueling property placed in service by the taxpayer during the taxable year. The cost will include certain installation costs. This credit may not exceed $50,000 for property subject to an allowance for depreciation and $2,000 for any other property. This credit is not refundable and will expire on 12/31/2010. Qualified Alternative Fuel Vehicle Refueling Property is defined as property that is originally used by the taxpayer for the storage or dispensing of a clean-burning fuel into the fuel tank of a motor vehicle propelled by such fuel, but only if the storage or dispensing of the fuel is at the point where such fuel is delivered into the fuel tank of the motor vehicle, or for the recharging of motor vehicles propelled by electricity, but only if the property is located at the point where the motor vehicles are recharged. For an individual, the equipment must be installed at
the individual’s principal residence.

State Statutory references:
IRC 30C

 

[earther]

I have been monitoring a couple of other similar threads and I cannot understand why the majority of eTEC EVSE recipients do not see the benefit in installing the 2nd meter?
...
This credit is not refundable and will expire on 12/31/2010.

sounds great, and I'd definitely look into it if there was a similar offer still available (I believe the one you quoted expired 6 months ago).

 

[waitingforaleaf]

Well, found the updated info for the EV charger installation tax credit at http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/laws/law/US/351

Looks like the program supports 30%, up to $1000, for residential installations, but from what I've heard this credit may not apply to the 2nd meter installation as that is seen as an optional installation not directly related to the ACTUAL charger installation. I may be wrong, so others should verify if interested.

For me personally, an average savings a month may not justify the initial expense of first installing the 2nd meter unless I can guarantee that I'll be staying at my residence for the next few years.

 

[pasowino]

PG&E has this handy tool on their website to help you decide which rate is best for you and what the difference between E-9A and E-9B would be.

http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/word_xls/shared/environment/whatyoucando/electricdrivevehicles/PEVRatePlanComparisonCalculator.xls

(note: The daily driving mileage you type in is multiplied times 30, so if you don't drive 30 days a month, you'll need to change that daily mileage number)

For full disclosure, I work at PG&E, not in the EV department though, darn it.

 

[mxp]

I found an interesting read about E9A from another forum:

http://priuschat.com/forums/freds-house-pancakes/91485-damn-you-e9a.html

Damn you E9A

My Previous PG&E plan was E1B with CARE. PG&E has a rate plan for electric car owners E9A and E9B. I opted for E9A thinking that if I change the rate plan to one catered for EVs that I would save some money, since my PHEV kit only takes 3-4KW to charge. Long story short, I got my bill and it's 50% higher than my normal bill. Worst of all, no CARE discount. I called PG&E back and explained to them regarding the missing CARE discount. I was informed that E9 plans do not qualify for CARE discount. Further more, once a plan is changed, you are locked into that plan for 12 billing cycles. Holy crap! with summer coming, there's no way I can afford $.3047-$.56915 per kw peak when summer comes. Luckily there was a loophole with my transaction. When I was told that CARE discounts does not apply to E9A and once plan is changed there's a 12 billing cycle lock I quickly realize I was not told this. In all honesty, I had not read about this in my research. Many of you will blame me that I didn't search correctly but I don't care. I told the CS rep that I was not told about the 12 billing cycle lock and no CARE discount if I switch to E9A. The CS rep connected me to a supervisor. I explained to him the situation again. He said that he will listen to the recording and get back to me. I was confident that the first CS rep didn't inform me about those 2 policies. After I got off the phone with PG&E, I listened to my recordings. Luckily I installed an app on my phone that records all the conversations. Sure enough, there was no mention of those 2 policies. The supervisor called me back and informed me that he had listened to the recordings and the CS rep did not informed me of CARE discount will not work on E9A. In fact no mention of CARE discount ever came up. He had revert my plan back to my old plan and told me to discard my current billing.
After this whole fiasco, I realize that E1B/CARE works out far better than E9A because with E1B/CARE, I can plug in and pay $.08316-$.09563 regardless of time charge or what my monthly usage has been, even if I've used 5000kw for the month. I use 600-1000kw a month pending weather BTW. With E9A, I'm limited to charging the car from 12AM to 7AM (impossible to do b/c sometimes I work graveyards) if I want the cheap rates. Even then, to get the cheap $.06186 per kw, I have to stay under 445kw a month. That's impossible to do where I live.

To sum up, If you have PG&E CARE discount, don't switch to any other plans. It won't save you money and only jack up your electricity bill. You'll locked to that plan for 12 billing cycles.
BTW I'm interested in hearing from you guys what you pay per kw and how many kw/mo you use. Thanks.

 

[Spies]

I don't mean to sound callus but how does one afford to own/lease a PHEV and qualify for CARE? It certainly sounds like a great deal if you can get it!

 

[mxp]

I don't mean to sound callus but how does one afford to own/lease a PHEV and qualify for CARE? It certainly sounds like a great deal if you can get it!

haha! Yeah I wondered the same. He explained further in that thread that he was just below the cut off line and he was single. Technically speaking, one could stay in a low income job for many years; and potentially squirrel away money over the years to finally buy "the car of your dreams". The Prius is quite easily attainable if you saved up for it.

 

[JohnOver]

PG&E has this handy tool on their website to help you decide which rate is best for you and what the difference between E-9A and E-9B would be.

http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/word_xls/shared/environment/whatyoucando/electricdrivevehicles/PEVRatePlanComparisonCalculator.xls

(note: The daily driving mileage you type in is multiplied times 30, so if you don't drive 30 days a month, you'll need to change that daily mileage number)

For full disclosure, I work at PG&E, not in the EV department though, darn it.

After fighting with it for quite a while to get the marcos to run on Excel 2010, I found that I was unable to enter all my data. The cells where you enter peak consumption would not allow me to enter negative numbers. I have solar and produce during the peak hours. Still, it showed that I would save a significant amount of money... Can't trust the absolute values since it's not considering my production (it said my dual-meter (E7 + E9B) bill would be $90/mo lower than charging on E7 alone.

I'm going for it!

 

[Spies]

I have solar and produce during the peak hours. Still, it showed that I would save a significant amount of money... Can't trust the absolute values since it's not considering my production (it said my dual-meter (E7 + E9B) bill would be $90/mo lower than charging on E7 alone.

I'm going for it!

Wait you are on E7 now? If it was me I would wait at least a year once I had an EV before changing anything like adding a second meter to collect usage data. I just don't see how paying to add a second meter to someone that has solar and on E7 would save anything in the end.

Thinking about it for a moment I guess it could save if one was already in the higher tiers on E7 would be one way. Still I would want real usage data before spending on a second meter.