Battling Winter Range Degradation

[DaveinOlyWA]

My Columbia coat

http://www.basspro.com/Columbia-Bugaboo-Tech-II-Interchange-OmniHeat-Jacket-for-Men/product/12080905030098/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

keeps the top warm. The problem I have is freezing feet. If this keeps up I'm going to get more:

http://www.underarmour.com/shop/us/en/ua-hitch-heavy-cushion-boot-socks/pid1209243-001" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have a couple pair I use for Scout campouts. I need enough to cover the full week now.

someone in Seattle recommended this
http://www.basspro.com/RedHead-Extreme-Heated-Socks-for-Men/product/97042/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

product reviews are weak though and I need something that is reusable and flexible. for me, i am ok with it, but SO would never do this. thinking about a pair of heated boots that would be used for just the car ride only. then put on regular street shoes when arriving at destination.

i think before i do anything like that, i will see how it goes on one way trips. my test was a round trip plus an extended stop in the middle walking outside (to get pix of new charging station) might not need feet warmers, but...

big issue here is defrost. the windows do stay clearer longer if you have the vent open on the foot/defrost setting. this allows cold air to blow in on your feet which is not helping!

 

[dgpcolorado]

...big issue here is defrost. the windows do stay clearer longer if you have the vent open on the foot/defrost setting. this allows cold air to blow in on your feet which is not helping!

Why not use Phil's CC mod? That way you can blow outside air on the windshield with the fan, as needed, but not anywhere else (unlike the foot/defrost method, which only works at fairly high speeds anyway).

 

[nlagnew]

Last year I got some short (ankle) boots that are comfortable and cozy. They help with the feet. I keep some "five fingers" shoes in my office so I don't have to wear the boots all day.

I have found, the first few cool days this year, that draping a lightweight windbreaker over my lower legs does a tremendous job of trapping a little warmth, and even better, keeping the breeze off my feet. It does not interfere with driving as it is quite lightweight. Don't know why I didn't find this last year. I used to drape a winter (well, 35-45 degree) coat over my legs, but it was heavier and didn't really block the breeze as well. I couldn't wrap it around my lower legs because it would have interfered with driving.

All that said, I grew up in New England and am accustomed to wearing a coat while driving. If it weren't for the defogging issue, I'd be better off than I am. I plan to purchase Phil's CC solution.

Also, I concur that if range is NOT an issue, the heat is tremendous. Warm enough to keep my octogenarian mother toasty (she has reached the stage where everything under 70 degrees feels cold to her).

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I find it amusing that most of those posting to this thread are from warm-weather states. Only a few have chimed in from areas that actually get cold (i.e. spend the entire winter below freezing, and often sub-zero).

Anyway, I was wondering about the effectiveness of preheating the car. Say the temperature is below 20F. At this point, you need heat. Heated seats/steering wheel just won't cut it. Also, assuming that you have preheated the car (and hence also the fluid), how much energy does the car need to maintain that heat? If you have a long commute, say 50 miles over an hour, will the "preheat" have been lost and the car is now completely on its own? Or does it still have some gain?

I don't personally have the above situation and don't often have a chance to try this out. Perhaps someone else has? I know a few coworkers who are interested in the Leaf, but (rightfully) worry about winter range when the temperature is sub-zero and they have a longish (30-40 miles) commute. (Assume for the sake of argument that L2 charging is available at work, so they start their journey home with a fully charged and preheated car)

 

[ksnogas2112]

Haven't hit 20...yet...but at 30* a 10-15 minute preheat kept the heat in for about 20-30 minutes and only burst the defrost to clean the windows. Driving was 35 mph and dropping both kids off at their schools so lots of door opening too.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

...big issue here is defrost. the windows do stay clearer longer if you have the vent open on the foot/defrost setting. this allows cold air to blow in on your feet which is not helping!

Why not use Phil's CC mod? That way you can blow outside air on the windshield with the fan, as needed, but not anywhere else (unlike the foot/defrost method, which only works at fairly high speeds anyway).

tried that (sort of) i had a big fan the kind that truckers use for defrost and it was barely effective at clearing the windows. now it might work in other areas of the country but with average humidity of 99%, unconditioned air simply does not do well here

Anyway, I was wondering about the effectiveness of preheating the car. Say the temperature is below 20F

preheating is very effective if you are plugged in and i would definitely recommend it for any temp below 40º (although i don t use it...) but the morning trip was not my primary concern since I rarely needed a lot of warmth. its the return trip home after the car has been sitting out in the cold all day.

now, its all relative and 20º is too cold for anyone to put up with. now in the few times that i have preheated (do it while quick charging frequently) i can maintain a nice warmth and keep it near the 1-1.5 KW range (about same as A/C) so not too bad at all. This really only equates to losing 4-5 miles of winter range due to climate controls

 

[GetOffYourGas]

now, its all relative and 20º is too cold for anyone to put up with. now in the few times that i have preheated (do it while quick charging frequently) i can maintain a nice warmth and keep it near the 1-1.5 KW range (about same as A/C) so not too bad at all. This really only equates to losing 4-5 miles of winter range due to climate controls

Thanks for the info!

This leads me to another question - does anyone have experience with providing heat for passengers in the back seats? In my case, the heated rear seat is useless because I have two kids in car seats. Yes, I give them blankets, but that's just not enough when the air is 20º. I really need to run the heater in these cases. Again, assuming the car is preheated when plugged in, how well does it keep the back seat warm? Does that 1-1.5kW draw also keep the rear occupants warm when it's 20º outside?

 

[ksnogas2112]

My two teenagers love the heated back seats. They'll ride with me instead of the wife's Prius which only has heated front seats.

 

[Rauv]

Hmmm. Just noticing now that it is cool here in Minnesota (15 degrees yesterday. Brrr), the regen bubbles are NOT all double bubbles. Never noticed that before and supports the cold battery regen issue. Driving down the highway at 65 MPH and one or two leftmost bubbles resort to single (non-regen) bubbles. Interesting. Not sure what it does to actiual range, but it is just one more thing to be aware of I guess.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Hmmm. Just noticing now that it is cool here in Minnesota (15 degrees yesterday. Brrr), the regen bubbles are NOT all double bubbles. Never noticed that before and supports the cold battery regen issue. Driving down the highway at 65 MPH and one or two leftmost bubbles resort to single (non-regen) bubbles. Interesting. Not sure what it does to actiual range, but it is just one more thing to be aware of I guess.

driving 65 mph @ 15º must be a killer on your range. not having regen available "could" reduce your range by not allowing you to regain all the juice you could. there is a way around that but not something i would recommend and is regen a little. in your case, you want to avoid regen on the freeway as much as you possibly can. i always have the energy screen on and try to anticipate the effects of gravity on hills where i will slowly bleed of speed to be going under the my set speed at the crest of the hill and slowly get back up to set speed going down the hill.

some hills are big enough and steep enough where avoiding regen is not an option but you will notice if you keep regen low at first, this will warm up the pack and give you more regen bubbles

 

[mrradon]

I carpool in rainy Seattle with a full car. I find that driving alone I hardly ever have window fogging issues. Since I installed the switch to trick the in cabin air temp sensor to think the car is much colder, I have been pre-heating the car to 90F every morning. This gets the moisture out of the car and gets the heating fluid up to a high temp. I use very little energy in the 20 mile commute to work because its just keeping the fluid warm.
The four bodies produce a lot of moisture that collects on the windows so i have to drive with the defroster on.

Since I can't plug in at work and with four adults plus rain rain rain the defroster has to be on the entire trip, I loose a lot of range.

 

[mynameisjim]

Hmmm. Just noticing now that it is cool here in Minnesota (15 degrees yesterday. Brrr), the regen bubbles are NOT all double bubbles. Never noticed that before and supports the cold battery regen issue. Driving down the highway at 65 MPH and one or two leftmost bubbles resort to single (non-regen) bubbles. Interesting. Not sure what it does to actiual range, but it is just one more thing to be aware of I guess.

I noticed that, too. Also, it seems to be related to OAT and not the battery temperature. I have a heated garage that is probably in the mid 50s, but when it was in the teens outside you can see I still lost a regen circle with 5 battery bars.

It appears to be speed dependent.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I carpool in rainy Seattle with a full car. I find that driving alone I hardly ever have window fogging issues. Since I installed the switch to trick the in cabin air temp sensor to think the car is much colder, I have been pre-heating the car to 90F every morning. This gets the moisture out of the car and gets the heating fluid up to a high temp. I use very little energy in the 20 mile commute to work because its just keeping the fluid warm.
The four bodies produce a lot of moisture that collects on the windows so i have to drive with the defroster on.

Since I can't plug in at work and with four adults plus rain rain rain the defroster has to be on the entire trip, I loose a lot of range.

yep fogging issues have to do with moisture in the car. so if raining and doing errands it will be worse due to you getting in and out of the car while wet. keeping inside of windshield clean is supposed to work well and will be trying some suggestions i got hopefully this weekend (if work cooperates...they keep calling me in. makes it tough to schedule anything)

 

[RegGuheert]

But, what is wrong with this picture. Why should we have to do this. The heating system sucks.

+1

Truly, this is the most convoluted climate control system ever devised. It has a mind of its own and not a very sharp one, at that. Coming from a 10.5yo Honda Civic Hybrid which has the most intuitive climate control system I have ever seen, this thing is a disaster.

Anyway, thanks, Dave, for starting this thread. I was thinking of staring one about cold-weather strategies and you saved me the trouble!

As winter comes on, I'm starting to wonder if getting a LEAF without the CWP was a mistake. But really, heated seats and steering wheel are not the issue for us. When it is cold, we have heavy coats on in the car. What gets cold are the feet and so far we find that putting the heater on to just our feet is pretty comfortable, even for the rear seat riders. The system claims it is consuming about 2kW. But this is above 30F. When it is 15F outside, I wonder how much range we will have.

Anyway, I don't have a commute, so I think our wintertime strategy will simply be to use the LEAF heater or take the HCH or another vehicle if it is extremely cold and we need to travel more than about 50 (40?) miles RT.

But I am still thinking about getting the heated floor mats I brought up in another thread. One question, though: Is there more than one 12V socket in the LEAF? If so, where is the second one? If not, are you guys using double or triple plug adapters to heat your seats? Can you recommend one with more than one high-power plug? I have several of these things around and they either have NO high-power plugs or only one (which makes sense given the fusing front most outlets). I guess if I could get 3A each out of three sockets that migh come in handy, but mine are limited to 1A for secondary sockets.

I do wish Nissan would reprogram the climate control system from scratch so that it made at least a little sense for humans in an EV setting, but I know that's not going to happen in the 2011s...

 

[ebill3]

Guess I'll throw in my 2¢.

Having just received my LEAF in the fall last year, and then hearing stories of reduced battery performance in the cold, and the energy hog CC, I was really cautious and very concerned about winter driving.

Now with the onset of colder weather I am quite a bit more relaxed, as I know what I can expect. I do not have a commute. My longest 'normal' round trip is about 55 miles, and if necessary I can get an hour or two L1 at the destination. If I want to dig out the quick 240, I can get L2 with my upgraded EVSE. The last two times I made that little trip it was right at 40°F. Pre-heat and 100% charge allowed me to make the trip in comfort using CC as I wished, and arrive home with plenty of cushion. On one trip, I did get an hour of L1, but it really was not necessary.

So, when it does get colder, I plan to use CC and then count on the one or two hours of L1 or L2 at my destination.

I do miss the waste heat from the ICE, but if it is really cold, or the trip is of greater length, that waste heat will be put to use.

Bill

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

hmmm? well, i have a dual head 12 volt plug adapter and have no idea what it is rated at. generally there is only one of us in the LEAF for the longer trips. short trips we either blast the heat (she does anyway...) our big thing is not plugging in two seat heaters, its being able to charge cellphones. we both use Pandora a lot and neither of us have much charging options at work so sometimes getting that extra boost is where its at and they are pretty low powered.

 

[surfingslovak]

Wonder what you guys thought of this: Infrared heating system for EVs

The German automaker, which introduced the idea at a recent Innovation Day, explained a system that would see panels that give off thermal radiation mounted in footwells and on door panels. Besides the energy savings, the system would be silent and could deliver cabin heat within a minute and would have no need for fans or air vents. More importantly, when coupled with an on-board heat pump, infrared could cut cabin heating energy requirements in half and may extend electric range by as much as 30 percent.

 

[RegGuheert]

Wonder what you guys thought of this: Infrared heating system for EVs

Interesting, but I'm a bit skeptical. I used to live in a house with radiant heat panels in the ceiling. They kept the carpeting on the floor nice and kozy, but I would say they were anything but efficient. But who knows, maybe if they were only in the footwells it would be a nice feature, as he says.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

had friend who had the "Platinum Cat" heater. used infrared and it was like "campfire" heat. as long as you were standing in front of it, it worked great because it warms objects but not the air. so there is no "residual" heat of sorts that regular heat provides you.

it was very efficient and did keep you comfortable. it was in his boat and was perfect for that kind of situation as long as no one moved between you and the heater!

 

[surfingslovak]

had friend who had the "Platinum Cat" heater. used infrared and it was like "campfire" heat. as long as you were standing in front of it, it worked great because it warms objects but not the air. so there is no "residual" heat of sorts that regular heat provides you.

it was very efficient and did keep you comfortable. it was in his boat and was perfect for that kind of situation as long as no one moved between you and the heater!

Interesting to hear! I looked online, and although IR heating pads can be readily purchased, they are all targeting medical applications. The good news is that they appear to be effective, even at 3-4 feet distance. It will be interesting to see if having such heaters in the footwell and possibly also in the headliner wold provide a perceivable benefit in an EV. I think Nissan is onto something with their heated steering wheel, but that idea could be refined as well.