Arizona - You are Not alone

[hill]

Seems like Japan is having issues too.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1082483_japans-electric-taxis-falling-out-of-favor-with-drivers#comment-1000151008" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"... Nissan Leaf's government subsidized attempt to garner support with taxi drivers is failing spectacularly. In less than 2 years of use, the 60 mile battery has degraded to 30 miles per charge. Instead of 15 minutes to charge the battery, it now takes 40 minutes. This is wasted time for taxi drivers. To save energy as much as possible, some drivers are shunning the car's heater in favor of chemical pocket warmers, and even blankets ..."

Blankets? Oh yea ... I'd sure ride in THAT taxi.
I know they're doing a lot more QC'ing but still ... jeez. This is NOT the kind of story that make you run out and buy a Leaf. Still - after 2yrs of ownership - I'm able to eek out 100 miles - so ... I'm not complaining.
.

 

[kubel]

"Instead of 15 minutes to charge the battery, it now takes 40 minutes."

:?:

 

[TomT]

I believe that they are talking about cumulative time because of the reduced range...

"Instead of 15 minutes to charge the battery, it now takes 40 minutes."
:?:

 

[MaxPower]

When the battery loses capacity you are forced to spend more time charging since you now need to charge to 100 percent in order to get the mileage that 80% charge provided when new. Above 50% state of charge, the charger begins to reduce the current fed to the battery pack in order to prevent overheating. The charge rate is gradually decreased as state of charge approaches 100%.

Probably they are accelerating battery capacity reduction by routinely using QC to get to 100%.

 

[surfingslovak]

Probably they are accelerating battery capacity reduction by routinely using QC to get to 100%.

The source article lacked critical details, and the charging protocol was one of them. I find it doubtful that anyone would want to charge to 100% using a QC, since the charge current tapers significantly, and will be about as slow as level 2 at some point. The difficulty to get the car charged quickly could be related to increased internal resistance, which is expected to go up as the battery ages. While it's difficult to issue any predictions given the information provided, quick charging is likely not the only contributing factor here. Data from comparably stress-tested LEAFs should be available soon, and it might be best to let this topic rest until then.

 

[adric22]

I saw this story a few days ago. Which makes me wonder about their viability for Taxi use. And here New York City is talking about using that NV-200 van..

 

[walterbays]

I saw this story a few days ago. Which makes me wonder about their viability for Taxi use. And here New York City is talking about using that NV-200 van..

I wondered about that too. But it could still work out okay if Nissan had figured out the long term economics of their Tennessee battery plant, and had the contracts in place for a secondary market for degraded batteries, and therefore had set the exchange price of an old battery for a reconditioned one. Taxis rack up a lot of mileage. It could just be that for such use you expect to replace the battery after 2 years, not 5 or 7 years. And maybe you don't get 2-3 cent per mile operating cost with electricity as your only expense. Maybe you have to figure in an additional 4-6 cents per mile operating cost to pay for batteries. And maybe that still compares favorably with an ICE.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

unfortunately this story does not provide enough details and some of the "facts" mentioned are unverifiable. there are a TON of QC stations in the area mentioned but unable to determine whether they are in a place that is convenient for the taxi's. At first I thought this was misleading but it is a very congested area i am guessing so a 5 mile trip could easily take 20-30 minutes.

There are also several experiments with LEAF taxi's in Japan and some seem to be working better than others although range is an issue with all of them especially in Winter.

It would appear that an effective LEAF taxi has to have a charging station AT the location where they sit waiting for fares. Most large cities in Japan have a central transportation area (Yokohama Air Station is where we were situated near) and large taxi stand and having charging stations here would allow charging while waiting for a fare instead of the implied time away from stand to charge (and preheating) while losing business the article states.

 

[evnow]

I found this story hard to believe. I don't think all the "facts" mentioned are correct. I think some of the range loss is probably due to cold weather, rather than actually battery degradation.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I dont think is a "broderesque" article but cant help but feel that pertinent facts were omitted to help drive home a point of view

 

[GRA]

ISTM the only point of view that matters is that of the driver, who is losing fares and income because of the degradation in range and longer charge times. He really doesn't care _why_ this is happening (nor should he need to know,if BEVs are to be successful), he only cares that it is. This is why I didn't think that Leaf taxi project in Virginia? was a good idea. Between the climate, frequent QCs and the lack of a TMS, I thought this was a recipe for quick failure. BEV taxis can be cost-effective in some carefully chosen areas, but given their service requirements I wouldn't even consider one without a TMS, a battery capacity warranty/lease, or both. These are commercial applications, and total life-cycle costs and performance _have_ to be much more predictable.

 

[Weckel]

These taxi drivers make 6 or 7 fast chademo charge each day, when nissan recommends no more than 1 per day. It is normal that the battery has been damaged.

 

[sirenbrian]

These taxi drivers make 6 or 7 fast chademo charge each day, when nissan recommends no more than 1 per day. It is normal that the battery has been damaged.

But presumably Nissan was involved in setting this up. They wouldn't have let the first large scale test of their electric car as a taxi go unsupervised. I'm surprised they haven't stepped in to take and analyse the old batteries and replace them with newer ones so the experiment can continue.

 

[Herm]

But presumably Nissan was involved in setting this up. They wouldn't have let the first large scale test of their electric car as a taxi go unsupervised. I'm surprised they haven't stepped in to take and analyse the old batteries and replace them with newer ones so the experiment can continue.

You are assuming the left toe tells the right hand what is going on.. either that or they absolutely have no battery experts that will predict what will happen.

Fast charging to 80% is fast and does not heat up the battery too much.. fast charging to 100% is the opposite, yet what is a taxi driver going to do when range is steadily dropping?.. slow charging while waiting for a fare keeps the car air conditioned and slowly tops off the battery, but they are trying a different way with fast chargers. Fast chargers should be locked to 80% and tightly integrated to battery temperature.. you should not be able to fast charge when the battery is hot, sorry if you live in Phoenix.

 

[hill]

These taxi drivers make 6 or 7 fast chademo charge each day, when nissan recommends no more than 1 per day. It is normal that the battery has been damaged.

After spending some time around Tokyo (over 2 decades ago), one thing I noted was their incredible public transportation infrastructure ... much of which droped way down around midnight to 5am. That's when Taxi use would pick up. The smaller "heavy taxi use" window (late at night) to Q.C. means the story doesn't pan out ... even more so.