I would not waste anytime thinking about it and it sounds like a sales person at work. "Acting as a safety mechanism, the 60-amp circuit breaker interrupts electrical flow when the current exceeds the safe limit, thus protecting wiring and connected devices from damage. It is typically utilized for large appliances, such as electric furnaces, or subpanels that distribute power to several smaller circuits.Jun 29, 2023"
Are there any future benefit to install a 240V/60A outlet for L2 Charger?
- Thread starter Londondrug
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I'm not sure what you are saying, but I would definitely "waste time thinking" about the appropriate electrical code that covers what you are doing. Branch circuit capacity determines speed of re charge up to the capacity of the on board charger. It is a personal choice where you are comfortable with the speed of charge.
The O/P question was a legitimate one, and there is no one answer to the question.
Pretty much, although the old AC cable had this funky metal strip attached to the metal sheath that could meet EGC requirements. AC is pretty much deprecated, so 'flex' these days usually means MC cable with an EGC in addition to the current carrying conductors.
Residential electricians are very used to NM, UF and SE cable for long(er) runs. But flexible conduit with individual conductors can be very useful in some cases.
I am not an electrician in the trade, but my stuff goes in EMT for inside and PVC for burial. I can't bring myself to use ridged for burial on a farmstead, and I am not alone.
NM and BX Armor and flex have there place. I'll use NM in walls.
Just re did a lot in this 100 year old farm house and everything in the basement went in EMT. I pull a ground wire inside the EMT but it is not required here, two parallel ground paths (EMT and wire) are better in my book. I wouldn't trust emt alone, and its not bad to have a back up to the pulled wire either.
If I am hand digging a trench to run cable, it is going "in a pipe" 'cause there is no way I want to dig that trench twice. I have seen too many times a failure of direct burial to make the cost savings worth it.
That is why I said "one and done" at the start of this thread! Just the way I look at things.
NM and BX Armor and flex have there place. I'll use NM in walls.
Just re did a lot in this 100 year old farm house and everything in the basement went in EMT. I pull a ground wire inside the EMT but it is not required here, two parallel ground paths (EMT and wire) are better in my book. I wouldn't trust emt alone, and its not bad to have a back up to the pulled wire either.
If I am hand digging a trench to run cable, it is going "in a pipe" 'cause there is no way I want to dig that trench twice. I have seen too many times a failure of direct burial to make the cost savings worth it.
That is why I said "one and done" at the start of this thread! Just the way I look at things.
Sounds pretty typical
EVSE runs can be the exception to usual home wiring because of the continuous loads up to 48A (and rarely more). A LEAF with the new(er) 6.6 kW OBC only needs a 40A circuit. Even resistance water heaters are usually wired with either #8 or #6 Romex (unless the appliance is one of those idiotic tankless electric, and then they get parallel wiring.)
So Romex #6 and #8 covers the usual residential high(er) loads ... until a demanding EVSE comes along
My home EVSE circuit has a 50A breaker and #6 conductors in conduit. Both of my EV have 48A OBC, but my EVSE is limited to 40A and I haven't come across any good reason to upgrade it. Perhaps V2H will be that reason in the future. If I want more than 48A continuous load, I'll have to swap out the 3/4" EMT for 1" and then I can place a 100A circuit.
Can you imagine a future car supplying a home with 20 kW AC ?!!
I don't think my home demand exceeds 1 kW outside of EV charging, though mini-splits will add some 3 kW.
EVSE runs can be the exception to usual home wiring because of the continuous loads up to 48A (and rarely more). A LEAF with the new(er) 6.6 kW OBC only needs a 40A circuit. Even resistance water heaters are usually wired with either #8 or #6 Romex (unless the appliance is one of those idiotic tankless electric, and then they get parallel wiring.)
So Romex #6 and #8 covers the usual residential high(er) loads ... until a demanding EVSE comes along
My home EVSE circuit has a 50A breaker and #6 conductors in conduit. Both of my EV have 48A OBC, but my EVSE is limited to 40A and I haven't come across any good reason to upgrade it. Perhaps V2H will be that reason in the future. If I want more than 48A continuous load, I'll have to swap out the 3/4" EMT for 1" and then I can place a 100A circuit.
Can you imagine a future car supplying a home with 20 kW AC ?!!
I don't think my home demand exceeds 1 kW outside of EV charging, though mini-splits will add some 3 kW.
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My brother used to have a hot-tub that was long gone, his wife wanted an electric range (to replace gas) so I pulled the run to the hot tub, re directed the 50 amp wires and conduit to the kitchen (a much shorter run) and kept (as my payment) the rest of the 3/4" conduit and 4 conductor cabling. So my EVSE was almost free. I did have to bury some URD for 30' or so to bring power to the out building, but that needed to be done anyway, it was a question of how much (how big) to go, and I went with 125 amp cable as that is what is supplied to the JCT box, that way I could used a breaker box without a main breaker (again rated for 125 amps). My "one and done" thinking again. Cables had to be larger, hence the URD, but the end the price wouldn't have been much less with a main breaker and a lower feed capacity.
I think you had a choice of placing a tap, but I would have done the same as you. I'm a big fan of well supplied sub-panels.
The curious thing about taps is that outside runs do not have the ampacity restrictions we usually run across. NEC 240.21 for not-so-light reading
I'll take your word for it, I am not that into reading code. I just make sure I meet or exceed it if possible, then no one looks to see if I could run a lighter wire!
The meter service is 125 amp (or at least the main breaker/disconnect is) and the feeder line to the house and outbuildings are all sized to carry the full load (150 amp so over the full breaker rating). All are underground. so the way I understand it, I'm covered. None of the down stream wires or breaker panels are rated for less than full main breaker load. All branch circuits have a suitable breaker protecting them. All jct boxes are ABB (Midwest) and are rated for outside use.
The meter service is 125 amp (or at least the main breaker/disconnect is) and the feeder line to the house and outbuildings are all sized to carry the full load (150 amp so over the full breaker rating). All are underground. so the way I understand it, I'm covered. None of the down stream wires or breaker panels are rated for less than full main breaker load. All branch circuits have a suitable breaker protecting them. All jct boxes are ABB (Midwest) and are rated for outside use.
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True. Yet, it's not only older houses. Receptacles (as you also mention somewhere) are just as critical..
A FLIR picture of my receptacle with an L1 charger at 6A connected. At 10A the temperature increase with respect to ambient is linear. Ambient is 0-5 deg C, surface of receptacle is around 14 deg C (the black is outdoor which is -10 deg C). The wires (1.5 mm^2) have a very slight temperature increase which rises quite a bit when insulated (obviously). I will be getting my L2 charger at the end of this month and I have to admit that I like that I do not have to worry about this crappy setup anymore.
Hmmm. Perhaps I am not following correctly. Do you have two sub-panels ? Is the rating for each sub-panel 150 Amps ?
I'm not wondering about safety, but whether your service is sized for your loads. This is another instance of EVSE installations being a bit of an odd man out. IIRC, an EVSE load is the greater of 7200 VA or the circuit rating. Although not required by the NEC, I personally treat EVSE branch circuits as co-incident loads and do not derate them in load calcs. This is explicit in the standard load calc but not in the optional method.
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WetEV
Well-known member
SAE J3400 does not have a neutral, so can only support charging at 240 Vac, and not V2H at 240Vac without an isolation transformer.
Heat pump, induction stove, water heaters and such can add up to a lot of power.
I have a typical farmstead, power comes to a yard pole where the meter and main disconnect is located (on the pole) each building is fed from a jct box directly below the meter/disconnect. All feed wires to breaker boxes are sized for the full amperage of the main breaker. The house breaker panel, was installed with a 150 amp main, which is basically a buss bar as the main breaker is lower. Not my doing, was done before I moved in. There are two other buildings fed underground, each had a feed cable rated for full current. None of building come close to the 125 amp main. house uses at most a 40 amp draw with either the A/C running and/or dryer. The little garage the biggest load is the EVSE also feeds the well pump, and an outside light. the barn has a few lights and a welder and 20 amp 240 for an air compressor.
I've had a clamp on ammeter on the mains, and the load is well below 60 amps peak. I don't have anything that draws more than the welder and EVSE, being the largest load. Gas range and water heater, gas furnace.
I've had a clamp on ammeter on the mains, and the load is well below 60 amps peak. I don't have anything that draws more than the welder and EVSE, being the largest load. Gas range and water heater, gas furnace.
TronJockey
Well-known member
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- Jul 6, 2019
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Unlikely you're going to see anything larger than an 11.6kW (240Vac x 48amp) on-board charger in EV's anytime soon. EV manufactures want customers to see that they can use a simple inexpensive charging cable (usually comes with the EV) to easily plug into their homes existing electrical system without expensive upgrades. A NEMA 14-50R (typical outlet for an electric range) is about the limit in most homes. Most homeowners will be able to charge an EV with an on-board charger (capable of up to 11.6kW) without needing to upgrade their electrical panel or install any expensive (above 50amp) Level 2 charging equipment.
48 amp load requires a 60 amp circuit max continuous for a 50 amp branch is 40 amps. Still in most case there will be a way to set for 40 amp max on the EVSE or it will have to be hard wired to a 60 amp line.
radicalone
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As an owner of multiple EVs (Nissan Leaf, Tesla model Y, Toyota hybrid plug-in) and knowing a few models for the future future likely to be part of our family, having the capacity to go to a higher load is super helpful. The breaker you install such as a 50 amp or 60 amp should only be used at 80% capacity. meaning you will only ever use 40 A to 48 A when you use the system at maximum. This is a significant difference when you’re charging the Nissan leaf compared to a Tesla and future generation cars with higher capacity level 2 on board chargers.
Really comes down to the one simple rule. The EVSE should be matched to the circuit it is connected too, not the car. A car that can charge faster on a higher input, can still be charged on a lower capacity EVSE. You only need the bigger circuit to charge faster, not charge at all.
That can mean an aftermarket EVSE that has adjustable settings, or matching the supply circuit to a fixed input EVSE.
That can mean an aftermarket EVSE that has adjustable settings, or matching the supply circuit to a fixed input EVSE.
Good rule of thumb, but beware an important related safety gotcha: those who use adapters either have to match the adapter to the EVSE or match the EVSE to the adapter. Or match the adapter to the highest load of the car.
I bought a 60A (48A load) adapter specifically because I know that my car would never pull more than 48A, so I didn't have to concern myself with the charging circuit or EVSE rating when out and about
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goldbrick
Well-known member
Unless you want to charge 2 EV's instead of 1, if the current EVSE is good enough now it should be good enough in the future, unless your needs change drastically, ie battery size is irrelevant. Regardless of the battery size the key is can you add enough kWh per unit time to make the car useful. Whether the amount of kWh moves the charge from 30-80% or 30-40% doesn't matter if you can use the car as desired with the energy added during the charge session.
tl:dr it's the miles added per hour that counts, not the % SOC added per hour. If it works now, it is probably OK for the future
tl:dr it's the miles added per hour that counts, not the % SOC added per hour. If it works now, it is probably OK for the future
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GaleHawkins
Well-known member
Sensible point you make. While with our 2016 Leaf SL 26 amps is the max it can use. That max potential jumps to 48 amps for Model Y but since the detached garage is fed by a 40 amp breaker 32 amps is the most that I can offer the Model Y.
TVA asked we manage our loads (+3F last night) so I choked the Model Y down to 16 amp max and all is well working 3-11 shift. It is fully charged before every afternoon plus I preheat the battery while plugged in during this wave after wave of polar air. Five minutes before I get to the car at night I start the Defrost mode. Well we're coming out of the deep freeze because we're to have rain for the next week. I may keep charging at 16 amps Max.
I know people interested in getting an EV and a low cost charging set up so I tell them about the 240 volt 20 amp option and explain its pros and cons. When I first got the Leaf I made do with the 120 volt option for a while.
TVA asked we manage our loads (+3F last night) so I choked the Model Y down to 16 amp max and all is well working 3-11 shift. It is fully charged before every afternoon plus I preheat the battery while plugged in during this wave after wave of polar air. Five minutes before I get to the car at night I start the Defrost mode. Well we're coming out of the deep freeze because we're to have rain for the next week. I may keep charging at 16 amps Max.
I know people interested in getting an EV and a low cost charging set up so I tell them about the 240 volt 20 amp option and explain its pros and cons. When I first got the Leaf I made do with the 120 volt option for a while.
Yodrak
Well-known member
Battery life, I believe. I installed a 40 amp capable EVSE on a 50 amp circuit for my Tesla, and for a couple of years charged a 40 amps. Then at some point the car started switching itself to drawing 30 amps every time I set to 40. I vaguely recall Tesla forum posts at the time talking about Tesla having derated the allowable charging current for the express purpose of protecting battery life.
