aftermarket audio and leaf electrical system

[garygid]

The "upgraded" JBL audio system in the "2010 Prius III + Nav"
seems quite good, crisp and nice to listen to.

But, I am old and my hearing is missing the high frequencies ... so what would I know?

 

[defiancecp]

Yes, an automotive environment is a huge challenge for audio, and there will likely be no way to completely overcome some of the obstacles - but I personally prefer to get it as close as feasible


Not quite as close as possible, though ... one of the best sounding cars I ever heard was a hatchback that had removed the rear seats and moved the front seats about 4ft back. The image was surprisingly wide, and the normal left-bias (from driver's seat) was almost eliminated.

It got some national trophies if I remember correctly...... But it was not safe to drive on the road, IMO

Personally, I'm generally pretty happy with the image from really well-placed kickpanel speakers. That placement does require a little extra consideration of frequency response due to all the obstructions (legs ), but the image improvements are usually worth it.... though that's from my "old" perspective where I could easily dampen frequencies to bring response flat and still have plenty of power left over, so I will need to revisit that balance to make sure it's still worth it.


Besides, I enjoy the challenge almost as much as I do the music.

 

[garygid]

Does the LEAF have 6 speakers, one in each door ...
and two "overhead" speakers, perhaps near driver and front passenger?

 

[defiancecp]

Well, car should be ready in just a bit over a month (yay!) so I figured it was time to try and finalize my ideas on this. As it stands now, my thoughts are:

-Factory unit, too much integration to change
-Get factory in and out wiring harness adapters together (so basically it just works like an extension harness) to the stock unit so I can splice wires in my harness
-Disconnect factory front outputs from the speakers (leave rear connected - explain why later)
-Connect front output to David navonne line output converter http://www.davidnavone.com/cart.asp?14&pid=362
-Output front channel to two amps -
--Pioneer GMD9500F http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/GMD9500F/detail.asp
--Pioneer GMD7500M http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/GMD7500M/detail.asp
(BTW - thank you for the pioneer suggestions earlier in the thread - though the one suggested has been discontinued, their full-range class D line is still going in the ones I have suggested, and they were exactly the kind of thing I needed)

-Bridge GMD9500F to 2-channel mode, giving 200w*2 into 4 ohms, cross over at 80hz high pass (total current draw ~32A peak) (would prefer a 2-channel so I could operate at 2 ohms and use speakers more compatible with the factory, but the gm-digital line only includes mono and 4-channel amps)
-Output from that into a 4-ohm 6.5in component set. Looking at infinity perfect 6.1 http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/Perfect6.1/detail.asp

-GMD7500M is mono 400w into 2 ohm
-Output that into a pair of JL Audio W0 10" subs in a ported enclosure, probably tuned around 32hz (haven't finished working this out yet, but I already have the pair of subs, and they match the power level of the amp pretty well)


-Replace factory rear speakers with infinity 6030cs (since they're 2 ohm) (actually, are the rear speakers 6.5" as well? I know there probably isn't a tweeter location back there, but I can work that in.


A few notes - I'm in the camp that believes rear speakers will likely negatively impact staging, but I'm also in the camp that thinks back seat shouldn't be completely left out. So I figure put a nice component set back there driven off the head unit (I'll probably add a passive low-pass crossover as well), then leave the audio faded forward all the way when there are no passengers.

Anyway, that breaks my design goal of peak draw of 60A, but I couldn't find much smaller of reasonable power (I'd have loved to see a nice brand 250-300w sub amp with a similarly efficient 125-150x2 amp of the same brand, but they don't seem to exist - other brands use class ab, and the gains I would get stepping down in power were made up for by the loss of efficiency.) Plus, it's 65-ish, not too bad. Especially considering the stock unit will probably save 5A by not driving the front speakers.

And again, if it's 60A peak, it's probably a quarter of that average at high volume, and even less most of the time.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Don't run any quality separate aftermarket speakers off the factory unit just for the rear, it sounds terrible and you may as well leave the stock speakers in if you are going to do that, otherwise run everything off an amp or it's going to sound poor. Anyone using separates on the factory radio will be disappointed as any propers crossover will suck up all the power of the factory stereo and sound poor as well. If you are doing an amp do it to all speakers. JL Audio makes a nice amp for your application and it is quite small. I will be using this in my car with their separates I have installed in the front and coax in the rear plus a very small sub.

http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_amps.php?amp_id=596

 

[defiancecp]

Well, from that perspective I'd prefer to keep it to the stock in the rear; I definitely won't be running them off an external amp since 90% of the time they won't be used, and the other 10% it's just to give the rear passengers a little bit of something to hear. Having them of similar volume/power to the front speakers would be a detrimental impact to staging. But, there's a user in the audio forum who has already reported major quality improvements (at the cost of reduced volume, which since I want the rear speakers lower volume anyway, is fine) by switching his speakers to aftermarket, and these are pretty inexpensive, so it's worth a try IMO. For the rears, it's not about getting it high quality, it's just minimum expenditure for a slight improvement.

That amp, however, is pretty darn perfect! I was getting close to what I wanted with the pair of pioneers, but they were just a little more than I wanted; that's a perfect step down. A bit more expensive - which in the past would never have made sense to me - but the balance between the bridged 4-channel output and the subwoofer channel is much more like what I wanted, and it fits under 60A! Woo! Many thanks for finding that one.

Incidentally, if someone is looking for a bit more power and is ok with the range hit, the pioneers are still nice amps. Another really high-efficiency option is cerwin-vega's stealth series; they've gotten near-class-d efficiency with full range on their sx440.4 as well (CA&E did an article on one and found it a great little amp). Again, all more than what I wanted here though.

With that I think that's probably as much power as I can squeeze into my "amperage" budget, so now I just need to work out most efficient/best sounding speaker positioning


HM...... Actually, with that amp, I could even make a relatively elegant 3-way system, putting midbass drivers in the doors and a component set in the kickpanels...... 2 channels driving the midbass, two driving the components. Would need 2ohm then though... Need to think more

 

[defiancecp]

Ah, now I'm questioniing that yet again

OK, opinion time - Some of you obviously know your stuff quite well (disagreeing with you doesn't mean I don't recognize and respect that )

I have a position I'm predisposed to... But the options available are making me rethink it.

Given - I know opinions differ on this, but I'm devoting all full range outputs from the amp to the front stage. So that gives me two configurations - 2-channel or 4-channel. The good news is, available options allow me to maximize output either way, so all that's really important to know is 2x200w or 4x100w.



Option A - Standard 3-way system (sub + 2-way components). Front channels 200w per channel, passive crossover. Available in a million varieties. I was looking at the infinity perfect 6.1 above, but since all it needs is 4 ohm, I could choose from almost limitless variety, and I'm looking now at maybe the Image Dynamics set... but anyway.
Advantages: simple. single point of origin for speakers reducing phase/time delay issues. (likely kickpanel)
Disadvantages: 2-way component sets tend to stretch to below the range the mid is optimized for, midbass reproduced by same speaker in most cases as lower vocal ranges, and crossover point between mid & tweet usually in vocal range as well.

Option B - Active 4-way system (sub, 2 channels to dedicated midbass, 2 channels to 2-way components). 100w per channel, 2 channels per side. Passive crossover still on components. Options a little more limited since this would require 2-ohm drivers. Likely options are http://www.woofersetc.com/p-3943-cxs52-image-dynamics-525-2-way-component-system.aspx AND http://www.woofersetc.com/p-7175-cx62-v2-image-dynamics-65-2-ohm-mid-bass-drivers.aspx (all image dynamics)
Advantages: midbass reproduced by dedicated driver, allows for a little lower crossover point making it easier to creat illusion of sub-bass originating in front stage, cleaner lower vocals because midrange not reproducing midbass. Active pre-amp crossover generally regarded as cleaner with more stable output
Disadvantages: multiple points of origin (doors & kickpanels), kickpanel speakers relatively large, mid-high crossover point still in vocal range

Option C - Passive 4-way system (sub +3-way components). Front channels 200w per channel, large passive crossover network. Very limited selection, but some of those are really nice. DLS UP36 components look amazing, or maybe even stepping up to the ur36i's...
Advantages: midrange now effectively dedicated to vocal range, including upper crossover now above vocal. midrange able to extend very low to keep sub-bass "in-front" illusion. passive crossover network specifically designed for these drivers. Also, smaller midrange driver makes kickpanel pod creation much simpler.
Disadvantages: multiple points of origin, large passive crossover network likely reduces output. Theoretically could be impedence stability issues presented to amp, but I would think these would be minimized as network is engineered specifically for drivers.




Between those options, I was initially thinking of A because I thought power would be more limited than it is. However, with 200x2/100x4 available, I think B or C are both very feasible.

Historically, I'd have immediately selected option B (or even taken it further and done 4-way all active). However, as I look at the advantages of option C, the smaller drivers and devoted midrange are huge advantages ... and with 200w per channel, I think the crossover network losses may not be too big a deal. Especially since there's still a passive crossover involved in option B, so comparative losses should be minimal.

Also, another huge bonus I just realized- All the other systems use traditional magents on the drivers, but the midbass in the DLS sets are all neodymium, so the total weight of those 3-way systems is probably less than even the 2-way systems. And mounting depth for the midbasses should be easier to deal with as well.

So now I'm thinking I'll probably go passive 3-way.

Anything obvious logical errors I'm making?