Advice: Spontaneous Turtle First Day of 2017 ownership

[BW908]

Hello,

I just joined this forum after buying a 2017 Leaf SV from Carmax. This car had only 2,000 miles on it and cost $15,000.

I drove off the lot with a 90% charge directly to a Nissan Dealer in order to have the battery mounting bolts recall attended to. While I was there, the tech told me that the Turtle light went on when he moved the car into the service bay. He said he "reset the codes" but if it happened again I should bring it in for service because maybe one battery cells was bad. It did happen again a few hours later when I started the car. I shut it off the cart and started again, and there was no Turtle light so I drove on a short errand. When I restarted my car, Turtle again. I tried driving to see if my speed was restricted - it was not. I made the short 2 mile drive home hitting a tops speed of 35mph or so.

I've seen the thread about this being an issue in cold weather and another thread at higher mileage. I'm asking for your advice in this case where there is extremely now mileage, AND I have a 7 day (now 6 days) right of return on the car from CARMAX. The battery is still under warranty of course, but the 3 year manufacturer warranty has expired. Is this an issue that can be completely addressed, or in your experience is this one of those things that will be a chronic problem. In other words, do you folks think I should return this car?

Thanks!

 

[LeftieBiker]

The Bad news: you almost certainly have a bad cell, although something like a BMS issue isn't impossible.

The Good news: if it is a bad cell, the car should qualify for a new, free 40KWH battery from Nissan. Then you would have a Gen I Leaf with a Gen II battery and a 150 mile range.

 

[Lothsahn]

The Bad news: you almost certainly have a bad cell, although something like a BMS issue isn't impossible.

The Good news: if it is a bad cell, the car should qualify for a new, free 40KWH battery from Nissan. Then you would have a Gen I Leaf with a Gen II battery and a 150 mile range.

There was a recent post on Reddit of someone in a similar situation. Nissan refused to repair the car under warranty, which was going to end up as a legal fight. It was not this car, as it had far more than 2k miles, but was still under warranty.

To the OP: your experience could be hit or miss. In some cases, you may have to get into a protracted discussion, potentially even involving lawyers, to get this problem resolved. The best case is you could take this into the dealer and get the problem quickly addressed or even a new, upgraded battery, as Leftie mentioned.

Personally, I'd return the car, as I've not seen a consistently good response from Nissan backing up battery warranties. I might also be negatively biased because mainly the people with problems come to post here on the forums.

Can you contact Carmax and tell them there's something wrong with the car you just purchased? If they'd be willing to extend the return policy, you could try working with the dealership, and if the dealership refuses to address it, return the car? It's in the best interest of both you and Carmax to try to have the car properly fixed, but that might take more than 7 days.

 

[gncndad]

Where are you geographically? Someone here might have experience with Nissan in your region.

My thoughts:
1) IF you want to spend how ever long it takes to resolve this, I think your first contact for warranty repair is Carmax, They sold you the car, with THEIR warranty, which Nissan will most likely require be satisfied first. Your particular Carmax might have a decent relationship with your local Nissan dealer, and both could work to get this resolved. (I know, I know...wishful thinking!!!)

2) IF you doubt that Carmax will work this out for you, I'd give it back to them. Since this MIGHT be a serious issue, they should fully refund ALL of your $$$, under their 7-day policy.

My brother has purchased and sold several cars through Carmax in the Bradenton/Sarasota region. He has had good experiences, and doesn't hesitate to return to them. I think he consistently pays too much, and sells vehicles to Carmax too low.

Good luck, Keep us posted.

 

[BW908]

Thank you all for the responses so far. Here are my responses to the questions/comments, and further questions from me.

I am located in Long Beach, CA and am currently dealing with both CARMAX and the NISSAN dealer in Buena Park, CA. Any advice on the best NISSAN service department in the region is welcome. I am local to dealerships in Buena Park, Carson, and Cerritos.

When I purchased the car, CARMAX told me that their limited warranty did not extend to the battery/BMS as it was still under Nissan warranty.

When I was discussing this issue with the Nissan service tech on Saturday, he told me that if the battery needed to be replaced it could NOT be retrofitted with a 40kwh batter as these will not fit in a 2017 model. LeftieBiker, do you think he's incorrect about that?

I did about a 30 mile drive with the car yesterday ending the day with 18% charge and about 26mi range. The Turtle light came on 5 out of 6 times I started the car. My speed was never restricted and I drove as fast as 55 mph.

It seems like what you are saying is the following -- please correct me if I'm wrong! If this issue requires a battery replacement, that is a hassle but at least I get a new battery -- possibly an upgraded battery. If the NIssan dealership determines that this is a BMS issue that needs repair, or that they will somehow repair a bad cell, that is one of those "ghost in the machine" issues that can be hard to accurately diagnose and repair, and could turn into a chronic issue. In which case, I'm better off returning the car and starting from scratch.

Thank you for the quick responses.

 

[gncndad]

I don't have a good feeling about this discussion. My opinion, of course.

Sounds like you'll be dealing with Carmax AND Nissan. IMHO, too much potential for confusion.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Carmax isn't going to do anything but take the car back. This is an issue with Nissan. The Tech was wrong to say that a 40kwh battery won't fit in a Gen 1 Leaf - they are being installed in them as we speak. We have at least one member here who has a Gen I Leaf that was 30kwh and is now 40. The 40kwh battery is very slightly larger (6mm taller if I remember correctly) but there is an air gap in the Gen I Leaf that allows for the extra height. You want a dealership that has done warranty battery replacement, and done it willingly.

 

[LeftieBiker]

It seems like what you are saying is the following -- please correct me if I'm wrong! If this issue requires a battery replacement, that is a hassle but at least I get a new battery -- possibly an upgraded battery. If the Nissan dealership determines that this is a BMS issue that needs repair, or that they will somehow repair a bad cell, that is one of those "ghost in the machine" issues that can be hard to accurately diagnose and repair, and could turn into a chronic issue. In which case, I'm better off returning the car and starting from scratch.

If you want to avoid hassle, then yes, return the car. Someone will probably get a 40kwh battery installed in it for free, but it may take a lot of time and effort - that factor really varies a lot from case to case, sadly. It shouldn't be this way, but it is.

 

[91040]

Doesn’t this only apply to Gen 1 Leafs that came with 30kWh batteries?

The Tech was wrong to say that a 40kwh battery won't fit in a Gen 1 Leaf - they are being installed in them as we speak. We have at least one member here who has a Gen I Leaf that was 30kwh and is now 40. The 40kwh battery is very slightly larger (6mm taller if I remember correctly) but there is an air gap in the Gen I Leaf that allows for the extra height.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Doesn’t this only apply to Gen 1 Leafs that came with 30kWh batteries?

The Tech was wrong to say that a 40kwh battery won't fit in a Gen 1 Leaf - they are being installed in them as we speak. We have at least one member here who has a Gen I Leaf that was 30kwh and is now 40. The 40kwh battery is very slightly larger (6mm taller if I remember correctly) but there is an air gap in the Gen I Leaf that allows for the extra height.

No. I am virtually certain that the 40kwh pack is being installed in Pre-2016 Leafs as well. They fit the 30kwh pack into the same space as the 24 used. They may have eliminated the air gap in 2016 instead of 2018, I suppose.

 

[Lothsahn]

I did about a 30 mile drive with the car yesterday ending the day with 18% charge and about 26mi range. The Turtle light came on 5 out of 6 times I started the car. My speed was never restricted and I drove as fast as 55 mph.

I am concerned about this statement. When the turtle light is on, your speed should be restricted to 25 or 35 mph (I forget which). If that's not happening, maybe this isn't a battery issue but something else with the car.

This could be a gigantic hassle for you, or it could end very well with a brand new battery on a car with basically no miles, or anything inbetween.

Again, if it was me, I'd contact Carmax and tell them of the problems I'm having with the car. I'd try to negotiate an extension to the 7 day return policy (in writing) to give me time to work with Nissan and see if they'll honor their warranty. Then, if at any time, it was getting too much resistance from Nissan, I'd just return the car.

Carmax may or may not go for that. If I were your used car dealer, I'd happily let you try for another 30 days to resolve the issues so I didn't have to buy the car back. However, Carmax is a big corporation, so they may be a little too big for common sense.

Also, what is the in service date on the vehicle? Your dealer should be able to look this up. If it's less than 3 years since the in service date, literally everything on the car is in warranty. If not, the basic warranty has elapsed (you still have a powertrain/battery warranty). That might give Nissan wiggle room to mess with you on the warranty ("It could be a fault of the dashboard light or the BCM, which are now out of warranty, so you're going to need to agree to a $1500 repair bill to replace both to rule these out as the cause").

If I sound cynical about Nissan, that's because I am. I've seen them try to tell someone that the VCM was out of warranty, when the warranty booklet clearly shows it is. I have not a whole lot of faith that they will stand behind their warranty policies, which is a shame, because I love my Leaf.

 

[Lothsahn]

Doesn’t this only apply to Gen 1 Leafs that came with 30kWh batteries?

The Tech was wrong to say that a 40kwh battery won't fit in a Gen 1 Leaf - they are being installed in them as we speak. We have at least one member here who has a Gen I Leaf that was 30kwh and is now 40. The 40kwh battery is very slightly larger (6mm taller if I remember correctly) but there is an air gap in the Gen I Leaf that allows for the extra height.

No. I am virtually certain that the 40kwh pack is being installed in Pre-2016 Leafs as well. They fit the 30kwh pack into the same space as the 24 used. They may have eliminated the air gap in 2016 instead of 2018, I suppose.

The 30 kWh upgrades are at the discretion of Nissan, but are indeed happening. Nissan is also still doing 30 kWh pack replacements in some cases. Nissan has confirmed this behavior, and Nissan still reserves the right (and has, on a number of occasions) done cell swaps to repair the battery packs, instead of replacing them.

You are correct that there is no externally visible difference between a 30 kWh and 40 kWh pack when installed in a car, and 2013+ 24/30/40 kWh are physically interchangeable (2011/2012 need an adapter for the wiring harness but otherwise fit). The 62 kWh pack does not fit in older Leafs (it's about 6mm thicker but otherwise the same shape), although some people have custom made brackets to make it fit. If this is done, the plastic battery covers cannot be reinstalled.

There's no guarantee the OP will get a 40 kWh pack, although it is, indeed, a possible outcome.

 

[goldbrick]

I know a 40kWh battery will fit in a pre-2016 Leaf but IIRC, Nissan still installs a 24kWh battery for warranty replacements for cars that originally came with 24kWh batteries. 30kWh warranty replacements are getting the 40kWh batteries since it appears the 30kWh battery is NLA.

edit: I missed Lothsan's post but I basically agree with it. There is no guarantee you'll get a 40kWh battery and personally, I'd return the car and get the one at 93% SOH.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I didn't understand the question. Yes, the 24kwh pack is used to replace 24kwh packs that get warranty replacements. I thought you were asking if the 40kwh pack would fit in the pre-'16 or pre-'13 Leaf. And yes, there is no guarantee that a defective 30kwh pack will be replaced with a 40kwh pack by Nissan, although that is what is now indicated by their recent policy change of using the 40 to replace the 30 from now on. With Nissan on the ropes financially, nothing is guaranteed, so the safest, easiest course of action would be to return the car, as I believe I've already stated.

 

[cwerdna]

I haven't had time to read this thread but to save time, the TSB saying that the 30 kWh pack is discontinued and that they're putting in 40 kWh packs into 30 kWh cars is at https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=583638#p583638.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Thanks, Cwerdna. It will be interesting to see in any 30kwh packs left floating around in stock get used anyway...

 

[BW908]

Thanks everyone. Here's the update. CarMax did indeed tell me that I had to go through them in order to preserve my warranty and right of return. After 2 hours of wait, the customer service agent returned to say there was no problem and I should ignore the warning lights. She was reading the technicians notes to me which sounded like they were reading the owners manual and had no real clue what the Turttle light meant. I refused to take the car back, and she asked if I would like them to send it to Nissan for a "second opinion." I agreed to that., and they also gave me a loaner (and ICE loaner of course) Their standard policy is that the return policy is suspended during the time I don't have the car. It will now be sent to the Nissan dealership one mile away who only has 1 EV tech, and he is the very guy who told me that if this problem persisted he would have to take down the battery and test each cell. So I have some confidence that he will do a good job.

I take Lothsan's point that since my speed was not restricted, it could be that the problem has noting to do with the battery. That said, there was no need to reduce power since the battery was fully charged, so if they do find a bad cell, it would make sense that repairing that will solve the problem (and I will still have 4 days to test drive the vehicle). On the Reddit Forum someone did respond to me saying that they had this exact same problem with their 2013 model, and fixing a bad cell in the battery solved the problem,.

Bottom line for me 00 If they find no problem with the battery, I will likely return the car because I know from past experience that electronic malfunctions and rogue engine lights can be notoriously difficult to trace and sooner or later very expensive fixes will be proposed. This car is past the 3 years in service date, so I have no protection beyond the battery and the limited CarMax warranty.

Final note - I have to say I was quite shocked that CarMax would tell me to ignore a warning light that could potentially cut power to the vehicle, creating a potentially hazardous highway situations since obviously I would not be expecting this with a high percentage of charge left in the tank. The customer service agent's jaw kind of dropped (even behind her mask!) when I explained what could potentially happen.

Thank you all for the help - it really helped me sort through this. I hope this thread might also help others in the future, so I will post the outcome once this is resolved one way or the other.

 

[GerryAZ]

Just to clarify--turtle mode restricts power delivery from the battery, it does NOT restrict speed. Therefore, the car will go faster than 35 mi/hr on the level if acceleration is gentle. Also, the allowable peak power under turtle mode depends upon battery cell voltages so the LBC (lithium battery controller) may allow higher discharge power when there is only one cell (or just a few cells) near the low voltage cutoff threshold. The descriptions of warning lights and driving conditions for BW908's car are consistent with a weak battery cell (or just a few weak cells).

Edited to add: The LBC will limit discharge current to a level that keeps the weak cell voltage above the minimum threshold. With the battery fully charged, the overall battery voltage will be high enough to allow fairly high discharge power even with discharge current limited to protect the weak cell(s).

 

[Lothsahn]

Just to clarify--turtle mode restricts power delivery from the battery, it does NOT restrict speed. Therefore, the car will go faster than 35 mi/hr on the level if acceleration is gentle. Also, the allowable peak power under turtle mode depends upon battery cell voltages so the LBC (lithium battery controller) may allow higher discharge power when there is only one cell (or just a few cells) near the low voltage cutoff threshold. The descriptions of warning lights and driving conditions for BW908's car are consistent with a weak battery cell (or just a few weak cells).

Edited to add: The LBC will limit discharge current to a level that keeps the weak cell voltage above the minimum threshold. With the battery fully charged, the overall battery voltage will be high enough to allow fairly high discharge power even with discharge current limited to protect the weak cell(s).

Good to know. Thanks for the correction, Gerry!

 

[BW908]

Thank you for that clarification GerryAZ. I misunderstood. Your explanation may also explain why even though I could accelerate in turtle mode, the car seemed sluggish to me. Of course I had only 2 days of driving experience and drove with the turtle light on about 75% of the time,, so I could be wrong about this.