$9900 Nissan Level III chargers come to the US

[Valdemar]

If its a choice of taking the Leaf, and getting a quick charge, to allow you to not use a gasoline car for a trip, I think thats worth a premium, over just the cost of gas, isn't it?

I paid a hefty premium when I purchased the car over a comparable ICE car (regardless if Nissan didn't make any profit on the sale). Now I also have to pay premium on fuel and also suffer from range anxiety and eventual battery capacity loss? Thank you but I don't like the idea. With regards to price of gas, in my case I would consider my other ICE as the baseline which is roughly 20MPG.

 

[mitch672]

If its a choice of taking the Leaf, and getting a quick charge, to allow you to not use a gasoline car for a trip, I think thats worth a premium, over just the cost of gas, isn't it?

I paid a hefty premium when I purchased the car over a comparable ICE car (regardless if Nissan didn't make any profit on the sale). Now I also have to pay premium on fuel and also suffer from range anxiety and eventual battery capacity loss? Thank you but I don't like the idea. With regards to price of gas, in my case I would consider my other ICE as the baseline which is roughly 20MPG.

Its not a "premium" for the quick charge, its just that the cost of installing these, for land, the 480V electrical service required, the cost of the fast charger, the demand usage charges, and the cost of the electricity, its probably never going to happen, if they can't get $10-$15 for a quick 30 minute charge... If a DC fast charger is between you and your destination, and its say 125 miles in total, using the fast charger allows you to take the Leaf, and make that trip without using your gasoline car, that's my point. If the total trip is 125 miles @ 20MPG, thats 6 gallons in your dino burner, or $21 total (@ $3.50/gallon), a $10-$15 fast charge mid trip is less money, and less polluting, although you will have to stop for 30 minutes (probably less if you want to stop it before %80 charge)

 

[Valdemar]

My calculations may be flawed but considering a QC system consumes 40kW/h operator's electricity cost should run around $6 per hour considering $0.15/kWh rate. Using your suggested QC cost of $15 2 quick charges per hr will generate $30 revenue, or $24/hr profit, or $360 profit per day based on 15hr/day utilization not considering any of the additional expenses you mentioned. At this "ideal" rate it will take a bit over 2 months for a 25k QC installation to pay for itself. Additional monthly expenses will vary from one place to another, but it is not too unreasonable to say that $15/QC will allow operator to cover initial costs in about 6 months which is just too good of an incentive in my opinion. This may be acceptable initially just to generate enough operator interest while EV population is low but too high in the long run.

 

[TonyWilliams]

My calculations may be flawed but considering a QC system consumes 40kW/h operator's electricity cost should run around $6 per hour considering $0.15/kWh rate. Using your suggested QC cost of $15 2 quick charges per hr will generate $30 revenue, or $24/hr profit, or $360 profit per day based on 15hr/day utilization not considering any of the additional expenses you mentioned.

The other costs are the BIG ones... not the cost of electricity.

Your data is misleading, suggesting that the other costs are bit players in the equation.

 

[Valdemar]

The other costs are the BIG ones... not the cost of electricity.

Your data is misleading, suggesting that the other costs are bit players in the equation.

How big? Do you have any numbers you can share?

 

[TonyWilliams]

The other costs are the BIG ones... not the cost of electricity.

Your data is misleading, suggesting that the other costs are bit players in the equation.

How big? Do you have any numbers you can share?

I've shared them many, many times here. SDGE quoted me $4000 per month in Demand Charges for a single 15 minute charge per month on a 50kW power draw. One year, $48,000. Ten years, almost one half MILLION dollars.

Not including insurance, which could vary wildly with new, scary technology. And depreciation. And maintenance. And basic overhead (how many chargers have to be making tons of money to support ONE employee?). And lost revenue when one breaks down, even if that is warranted. And the inevitable broken nozzle, at a reported $3000 each (with the cord, according to Nissan reps this weekend, about $6000).

Installations with a $50k AV or Ecotality unit could very quickly get out of hand in a heavy urban area. Quotes I've gotten for a generic installation with a nearby transformer with minimal concrete cutting was $10k. Ecotality paid almost $40k for the installation of 7 L2's with a nearby power source in Balboa Park.

What about some advertising? Or what happens when grandma drops that heavy nozzle on her toes, and sues you. How much does your insurance cost now ?

Have you noticed that I haven't mentioned the cost of electricity ? Since that is a commodity that the charging company has no ability to control, what happens when that doubles ?

 

[Herm]

and I wouldn't use QC on a daily basis, but it would let me to take on those longer weekend trips.

How often do you take those long weekend trips?.. every week?

The point I'm trying to make is that charging outside of your home will be in such a low demand that its not feasible to have a comercial QC network, perhaps when 50% of the cars on the road are BEVs but that will take decades.

Yes we all know lots of people that commute 100 miles a day or more, but they are a minority.

 

[Valdemar]

Yeah, I eat the humble pie. Those are sad eye opening numbers. I don't think even $20 per QC will make a difference. I will probably just ignore all QC related news now, at least the kind coming from corporate marketing departments.

 

[johnr]

I'm waiting on a DIY Level III charger. We can call it the "weekend project quick-charger" :lol: Really it shouldn't be all that hard to do. If you're going above 20 KW the demand charges kick in. But 20 KW is still a rather fast charge, and fast enough I think. So, you'd need a big enough transformer to boost the voltage from 240V, a heavy-duty rectifier to convert it to direct current, and then a circuit to communicate with the car's battery and control the power coming in.

But there would be three big obstacles: First, there's the CHAdeMO connector - where you would obtain one is beyond me. Also, this involves messing around with very high voltage DC. 240V AC is dangerous enough, high voltage DC is much more so. And finally, if it operates wrongly you might very well kill the car's battery.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Yeah, I eat the humble pie. Those are sad eye opening numbers. I don't think even $20 per QC will make a difference.

I have no idea how the few installations we are going to get in San Diego county have a chance at a profit. Honestly. Even if the units were free.

The customer base is tiny, and worse, of that tiny base, only another small percentage of folks will use a QC any more than infrequently. Completely different model than a small number of gasoline powered cars. Heck, not even all the LEAFs have a QC port, and many of the other "electric" cars don't have any QC port even planned (Focus, Volt), and any future American port is likely to be an SAE standard that can't used the ChaDeMo ports (a mechanical adapter won't fix the different communications protocol).

With a $10k charger, and mitigated demand charges, and some luck with insurance, and careful (and lucky) installation choices that keep installed price down, and the stars aligning, I can foresee $20 charges at some point making money.

The biggest single challenge is educating the LEAF and EV public that a QC is not just the relatively cheap cost of electricity.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I'm waiting on a DIY Level III charger. We can call it the "weekend project quick-charger" :lol: Really it shouldn't be all that hard to do. If you're going above 20 KW the demand charges kick in.

No demand charge for residential !!!!

You could have a network of home DC chargers for folks to share, like a club.

 

[TangoKilo]

I'm waiting on a DIY Level III charger. We can call it the "weekend project quick-charger" :lol: Really it shouldn't be all that hard to do. If you're going above 20 KW the demand charges kick in.

No demand charge for residential !!!!

You could have a network of home DC chargers for folks to share, like a club.

I can't wait to install mine... I hope my neighbors don't mind the occasional brown-outs... :ugeek:

 

[mywaracfirfoyff]

I've shared them many, many times here. SDGE quoted me $4000 per month in Demand Charges for a single 15 minute charge per month on a 50kW power draw. One year, $48,000. Ten years, almost one half MILLION dollars.

Sounds like a great use case for fast chargers backed by ~60kWh worth of used LEAF packs (someday), to kill the demand charges.

 

[tps]

If its a choice of taking the Leaf, and getting a quick charge, to allow you to not use a gasoline car for a trip, I think thats worth a premium, over just the cost of gas, isn't it?

I paid a hefty premium when I purchased the car over a comparable ICE car (regardless if Nissan didn't make any profit on the sale). Now I also have to pay premium on fuel and also suffer from range anxiety and eventual battery capacity loss? Thank you but I don't like the idea.

You're paying the cost of straying from the mainstream and being an early adopter; get used to it. In fact, there's probably little technical reason that EVs and their infrastucture should cost more tha ICEVs and their infrastructure. Its just that we haven't seen much, if any, economy of scale, yet. At this small scale, the electric companies aren't exactly jumping at the chance to fill a need with any kind of creative pricing models. Gas stations would end up with an entirely different economic model if people normally filled up from home gasoline tanks and only used gas stations as "range extenders". In time, someone will figure out a good business model for QC as the EV market expands.

 

[Herm]

The customer base is tiny, and worse, of that tiny base, only another small percentage of folks will use a QC any more than infrequently. Completely different model than a small number of gasoline powered cars.

Our only hope is that other countries set an example (UK, Netherlands?) and have great success.. then we will get fast chargers.. eventually other companies besides Tesla will offer 12kW on board chargers and that would be much easier to implement on 240V.

 

[edatoakrun]

You're paying the cost of straying from the mainstream and being an early adopter; get used to it. In fact, there's probably little technical reason that EVs and their infrastucture should cost more tha ICEVs and their infrastructure...

In fact, one of the great advantages of BEVs is that the BEV refueling system will us cost a small fraction of what we now have to pay for the ICEV refueling infrastructure.

If 90% of BEV refueling occurs off-peak as cars are parked overnight, as expected, the vast majority of refueling infrastructure is already in place-the parking spaces with electrical service nearby, which is currently “wasted” as a refueling opportunity for ICEVs.

Gas stations are extremely expensive to build and operate, particular in urban areas with high real estate costs. You pay for them every time you buy a gallon of gas for $3-4.

The far smaller number of BEV fast charge locations will generally be located outside of urban areas, as most every BEV owner starts the day with a fully-charged battery. And the fast charge parking spaces will also be doing “double duty” as parking spaces for fast-food outlets, mini-marts, and rest areas.

BTW, “morning edition'” on NPR just reported that the DC charge location is has been completed in Central point Oregon, on I-5 about 150 miles north of Redding CA, and will open "soon", so I may have the opportunity to fast charge my LEAf before many of you Southern California and Central California folks do...

 

[hill]

My calculations may be flawed but considering a QC system consumes 40kW/h operator's electricity cost should run around $6 per hour considering $0.15/kWh rate. . . . . . . . . snip

$.15/kwh rate ?? you (and I) wish. Read the post above (regarding demand usage) - and google what demand usage means. In short, your cost per kWh will be more than triple that of your guess.

What CAN'T be explained, is WHY in the world the utility Will NOT credit back (at the same rate that the utility charges end users) a QC facility that uses a solar array - which can easily push back onto the grid (YES ... during peak usage, when no one's charging) as much power as is being used by EV's - provided the PV array is large enough. Please answer why THAT is, Mr wizard.


.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

My calculations may be flawed but considering a QC system consumes 40kW/h operator's electricity cost should run around $6 per hour considering $0.15/kWh rate. . . . . . . . . snip

$.15/kwh rate ?? you (and I) wish. Read the post above (regarding demand usage) - and google what demand usage means. In short, your cost per kWh will be more than triple that of your guess.

What CAN'T be explained, is WHY in the world the utility Will NOT credit back (at the same rate that the utility charges end users) a QC facility that uses a solar array - which can easily push back onto the grid (YES ... during peak usage, when no one's charging) as much power as is being used by EV's - provided the PV array is large enough. Please answer why THAT is, Mr wizard.


.

+1

another thing is the cost of services has always been controlled by what the market will pay...not the cost of providing the services. you either pay for it or you dont and the business either thrives or it doesnt

so an analysis based on the "perceived" cost of electricity is simply not valid in any business model.

its like saying i should get a processor from intel for $10 because it has $3 in parts (silicon is made from plain old beach sand) and they are making a 300% profit. now that scenario is quite honestly just as ludicrous as yours.

P.S. i used to work at intel and processor material costs used to average about $1.90 per device with silicon cost not computed because it was infinitesimally small. but they do have gold contacts which is where 98% of the material costs come from . but that was in the late 90's and gold has gone up

 

[Valdemar]

another thing is the cost of services has always been controlled by what the market will pay...

I thought it was more along the lines of "supply and demand". Given enough supply and low cost of services will drive end user costs down, there is no way around it. Of course this ain't going to happen anytime soon.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

another thing is the cost of services has always been controlled by what the market will pay...

I thought it was more along the lines of "supply and demand". Given enough supply and low cost of services will drive end user costs down, there is no way around it. Of course this ain't going to happen anytime soon.

that has NEVER been the case. the higher the volume, the lower the cost to provide the service. that is why intel makes so much money. they build the processors by the millions. but they still sell them for as much as they can.

that has always been the case. why is Apple so expensive? there is only one reason; because they can! people bitch about the price but it has not stopped many from buying Apple.

who knows? Google may change that. i am a "Apple convert" to Android and have zero regrets. i have 10 times the phone for $100 less than a comparable i phone.


trust me on this; Ford did not become rich by passing his savings to the consumer. sure he was able to provide a car at 40% of the going market rate but only because he could build it at 20% of the current manufacturing standard.

but soon, QC will be cheaper, but we are at least 5 years away on that. as other entities see the movement to EVs supporting markets will spring up.

QC
Phil
charging networks; Blink, etc. (they were first but trust me, that field will have 2 dozen players in less than 3 years. all but a handful will fail)

and a few businesses we have not even thought of yet, but some one will and it will be one of those "ah hah!" moments as soon as we hear about it and they will become rich