2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

[LeftieBiker]

3. The ratio of motor Power(kW) to Battery (Ahrs) is basically 1.0 per all Leaf models, i.e. motor output is highly correlated to battery Ahrs.

No.

Do the calculations yourself, i.e. the data are NOT my data but Nissan provided data.

I assume you made that chart yourself...?

Yes. The Ahrs for the 30 kWh battery is: 30 kWh/360 = 83 Ahrs (nominal battery voltage of 360)
OK, then the 30 kWh battery was in 2016.

So there is a rough correlation (or coincidence) between pack capacity in AH, and motor power in KW - in 2016 (30kwh pack only), in 2018 and in 2019. Now you do realize that those are two different units of measurement you are relating simply because the digits almost match, and that there is no 1:1 correlation anytime before 2016...right?

 

[lorenfb]

No.

Do the calculations yourself, i.e. the data are NOT my data but Nissan provided data.

I assume you made that chart yourself...?

Yes. The Ahrs for the 30 kWh battery is: 30 kWh/360 = 83 Ahrs (nominal battery voltage of 360)
OK, then the 30 kWh battery was in 2016.

So there is a rough correlation (or coincidence) between pack capacity in AH, and motor power in KW - in 2016 (30kwh pack only), in 2018 and in 2019. Now you do realize that those are two different units of measurement you are relating simply because the digits almost match, and that there is no 1:1 correlation anytime before 2016...right?

What the data are implying is that when the HP of Leaf was increased, there's a corresponding increase in the battery capacity.
Or when the battery capacity is increased, the motor output power can be increased now that the peak current capability of
the battery increased. If power output of the motor is increased significantly, the peak current of the battery needs to be
increased, or the battery's voltage, to supply the increase in peak power required, i.e. Power (in) > Power (out).

For my 2013 Leaf with its 24 kWh battery, Nissan used only a 80 KW motor given that the battery could only supply about
a 200 - 250 amps of peak current, based on Nissan's overall design parameters. A significantly more powerful motor would
require a bigger battery.

 

[SageBrush]

What the data are implying is that when the HP of Leaf was increased, there's a corresponding increase in the battery capacity.
Or when the battery capacity is increased, the motor output power can be increased now that the peak current capability of
the battery increased. If power output of the motor is increased significantly, the peak current of the battery needs to be
increased, or the battery's voltage, to supply the increase in peak power required, i.e. Power (in) > Power (out).

For my 2013 Leaf with its 24 kWh battery, Nissan used only a 80 KW motor given that the battery could only supply about
a 200 - 250 amps of peak current, based on Nissan's overall design parameters. A significantly more powerful motor would
require a bigger battery.

If you include the restriction that the C rate stays the same between battery generations I think the two of you can come to terms.
I agree with you -- a higher capacity battery at the same voltage and C rate as a smaller battery will let a manufacturer spec a higher max power motor. I don't know if the old inverter had to be upgraded as well.

 

[LeftieBiker]

What the data are implying is that when the HP of Leaf was increased, there's a corresponding increase in the battery capacity.
Or when the battery capacity is increased, the motor output power can be increased now that the peak current capability of
the battery increased. If power output of the motor is increased significantly, the peak current of the battery needs to be
increased, or the battery's voltage, to supply the increase in peak power required, i.e. Power (in) > Power (out).

For my 2013 Leaf with its 24 kWh battery, Nissan used only a 80 KW motor given that the battery could only supply about
a 200 - 250 amps of peak current, based on Nissan's overall design parameters. A significantly more powerful motor would
require a bigger battery.

If you include the restriction that the C rate stays the same between battery generations I think the two of you can come to terms.
I agree with you -- a higher capacity battery at the same voltage and C rate as a smaller battery will let a manufacturer spec a higher max power motor. I don't know if the old inverter had to be upgraded as well.

NOT my quote above - lease re-attribute it. Lorenfb insists on arguing that when you want higher motor power output in an EV, you have to increase the battery capacity. This isn't true at all as a rule, and it's only true in some individual cases - most of them having to do with racing. Having failed to prove that, after I showed him/her that it was the INVERTER (I don't call it the controller because Nissan uses that word for the BMS) that was upgraded to provide more power from the motor, (s)he then created a chart, complete with errors involving year and pack size, that tries to show that there is and has always been a 1:1 ration between the motor's power output (in KW) and the pack's capacity (in AH, for gods' sake). Also not true. The ratio is more like 3:1, motorack and it varies from pack to pack. There are a number of factors involved, from Nissan's calculations about acceleration and range, to broad physical parameters (like not trying to exceed the xC rate of a pack) in determining motor power output for an EV. There are also factors like the lifestyle of the target market (do they mainly want to drag race or commute?) It's bad enough that laurenfb latches on to these arguments like a terrier. Having to note that an amp-hour isn't the same as a kilowatt is a waste of time. I'm done with this "debate." I think it's also time to update my filter again.

 

[WetEV]

Lorenfb insists on arguing that when you want higher motor power output in an EV, you have to increase the battery capacity. This isn't true at all as a rule, and it's only true in some individual cases - most of them having to do with racing.

This is true, if the C rate of the battery is a limiting factor.

How again do you know that the C rate is never a factor?
Source please.

 

[SageBrush]

NOT my quote above - lease re-attribute it.

Fixed

 

[LeftieBiker]

NOT my quote above - lease re-attribute it.

Fixed

Thank you.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

3. The ratio of motor Power(kW) to Battery (Ahrs) is basically 1.0 per all Leaf models, i.e. motor output is highly correlated to battery Ahrs.

No. Also, there was no 83AH pack between 2011 and 2015. I assume you made that chart yourself...?

probably a typo. has 24/30 under pack size

 

[LeftieBiker]

How again do you know that the C rate is never a factor?
Source please.

Strawman arguments are not polite or logical, and when used persistently are considered trolling. Please do not use them. And while you're looking that one up, you might look up "C rate" "AH" "KW" KWH" and "ratio." You can now have the last word, provided it isn't to make up something I never wrote, and then attribute it to me.

Dave slipped in ahead. No, he was counting the 2016 30kwh pack under "2011-2015."

 

[lorenfb]

he then created a chart, complete with errors involving year and pack size, that tries to show that there is and has always been a 1:1 ration between the motor's power output (in KW) and the pack's capacity (in AH, for gods' sake).

1. What errors? And if so, please state/show mathematically your alternate results.
Again, all the data comes from Nissan info, none were created.
2. Where has the term "always been a 1:1" relationship used?

The ratio is more like 3:1, motorack and it varies from pack to pack.

If you have better data, then provide it with references and show your calculations.

There are a number of factors involved, from Nissan's calculations about acceleration and range, to broad physical parameters (like not trying to exceed the xC rate of a pack) in determining motor power output for an EV. There are also factors like the lifestyle of the target market (do they mainly want to drag race or commute?)

Now you change the discussion to involve non-quantitative aspects and your subjective view.

Having to note that an amp-hour isn't the same as a kilowatt is a waste of time.

Where is that stated, i.e. Ahr and KW are same?

Bottom line: Obviously most would agree that there's a relationship between the minimum battery output spec, e.g. kWh, or a peak
continuous load current limit, and a given minimum motor power output in KW/HP. So what is it, or do think it doesn't matter?

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Can anyone with a plus report back on miles per kWh at 55 and 65mph? Maybe for a relatively flat 10 mile stretch?

Thanks

 

[GRA]

^^^ GCR:

2019 Nissan Leaf Plus: Drive review of long-range electric car

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...-plus-drive-review-of-long-range-electric-car

. . . By shoehorning a new 62-kwh pack into the 2019 Leaf Plus, Nissan now has an electric car that, as we found this past week, will go more than 150 miles between charges, at U.S. Interstate speeds, in the cold.

On a chilly, clear Pacific Northwest night, with temps starting at 44 degrees and falling to 39, and the adaptive cruise control portion of the Leaf’s ProPilot system on and set to 65 mph for much of the drive, we went 152 miles on the highway in the Leaf, before exiting at 5 percent remaining—slowing down slightly near the end of the trip to make sure we had an extra margin. Turns out we didn’t need it; after another 10 miles on local streets we were still at 2 percent. . . .

The day prior to the highway run, I’d driven the Leaf Plus about 140 miles, in a daytime mix of city and suburban conditions, including somewhat traffic-clogged expressways and boulevards, with ambient temps in the low 50s; in that driving environment, the trip computer estimated nearly 70 miles remaining—or a total of about 210 miles on the charge. . . .

Rides worse than the lighter versions, but steering's faster. Much other info.

 

[lorenfb]

Can anyone with a plus report back on miles per kWh at 55 and 65mph? Maybe for a relatively flat 10 mile stretch?

Thanks

Simple guess:

55 MPH ~ 4.1 miles/kWh
65 MPH ~ 3.3 miles/kWh

The difference between the Plus & non-Plus should be less 2-3%.

For Leaf models from 2010 to the 2019 when tested under very controlled conditions, the difference should be less than 7-8%.
Given all the other variables, e.g. ambient temp, slight variation in grade, tire pressure/size/type, vehicle load, wind conditions, etc,
that effect range, it really should be a non-issue for most Leaf buyers. The preoccupation with range and minor differences in
efficiency for some, irrespective of battery capacity (kWh), is naive when considering a BEV.

 

[geefish]

Not meaning to change the subject or anything, but is there a thread started somewhere about what people would like to see/expect to see in the next, third generation Leaf. For what its worth, this one simply won't be very competitive in another two years with its current design and specifications. A clean sheet design is needed. There's a little talk on a Norwegian EV site about the next completely redesign Leaf being due in late 2021, but they give no evidence or links etc. Just interested in peoples thoughts and current owners opinions.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I don't think anyone has started such a topic (and thanks for asking, first!). So feel free to start one. Just try to make the title descriptive enough to show up easily in searches, like "What Do You Want the Third Generation Leaf to Be?" (You don't have to use that exact title.)

 

[DanCar]

There's a little talk on a Norwegian EV site about the next completely redesign Leaf being due in late 2021, but they give no evidence or links etc. Just interested in peoples thoughts and current owners opinions.

OrientExpress said on this site that end of next year next gen Nissan EV is coming. Will be model year 2021. Will be on a shared EV platform. That means two things:
1. Lower cost for shared platform.
2. EV specific platform, so will be optimized for electric.
Elsewhere there are several reports that 300 mile range EVs are coming next year. There is a 27% battery density improvement coming. Woohoo!!! Because of this huge improvement, all current EVs will be less competitive in two years and we will once again see rapid depreciation.

 

[Astros]

So, I am considering trading in my 2018 SV for a 2019 SV Plus. I got the 2018 for a steep discount, and with the federal tax rebate it looks like I can trade it in for more than I paid for it (even including sales tax and high registration fees). Dealers here around Seattle are willing to sell an SV Plus for about $4K under MSRP, including all possible incentives. So, I am tempted to go for it, but it's still a hefty chunk of change to pay for ~60 miles of more range. The faster charging speed of the Plus is compelling to me. Not because there are any 100kW Chademo chargers where I drive, but because I hope that means that it can sustain 50kW for most of the charge over successive charges. Is that too naive?

What do people here think, is it worth paying ~$8500 extra over the life of the car to upgrade to a Plus? Some of that will be made up in resale value, but I'm hoping to hold on to this car for at least 5 years when there will be used Model Y, I-pace, etc... available.

 

[BrockWI]

Astros, this is just me, but if you can get as good of a deal on your current Leaf, personally I would go for it. My opinion is the existing Leaf values will drop a bunch once the Leaf Plus is available all over. So you would be getting more value out of your existing Leaf but steping up to the larger pack and likely faster charging as well.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

So, I am considering trading in my 2018 SV for a 2019 SV Plus. I got the 2018 for a steep discount, and with the federal tax rebate it looks like I can trade it in for more than I paid for it (even including sales tax and high registration fees). Dealers here around Seattle are willing to sell an SV Plus for about $4K under MSRP, including all possible incentives. So, I am tempted to go for it, but it's still a hefty chunk of change to pay for ~60 miles of more range. The faster charging speed of the Plus is compelling to me. Not because there are any 100kW Chademo chargers where I drive, but because I hope that means that it can sustain 50kW for most of the charge over successive charges. Is that too naive?

What do people here think, is it worth paying ~$8500 extra over the life of the car to upgrade to a Plus? Some of that will be made up in resale value, but I'm hoping to hold on to this car for at least 5 years when there will be used Model Y, I-pace, etc... available.

Sounds like you are negating the great deal you got on your 40. Do you need that extra range?

I get we all need it, eventually but at what cost? I have the 40 and it works for me simply because I make it work. Sure more range would be nice but for the what? 6-10 times a year I would need it? Even if it was 50 times a year, I would have to decide whether the cost divided by the occasions to use is worth it.

I have free public charging (as you do) so range is adjustable. If I don't have it, I go get it. Then comes the challenge of how to spend my $8500...

 

[goldbrick]

I've been thinking lately of getting a 2019 non-plus to replace my 2017 S. I don't really need any more range but hey, it's 33% more right? And it would reset my warranty by 2 years and I'd get an updated motor and other tech.

But.....I think I'll just keep the 2017. It does almost everything I need with one very minor exception (RT to airport without charging) but that is such a nit it really doesn't matter. I got such a great deal on the 2017 that I could sell it for a profit and the local dealers seem to be selling the 2019 non-plus Leafs at a discount, probably since they know the plus'es are coming. But then, what happens when Leaf Gen3 comes out?

I knew going in that EV tech was changing rapidly and any car bought today will be obsolete in a few years. That doesn't mean it isn't a good car. I'm going to just keep driving my 2017 for as long as it moves. It's not quite as far back as the guy down the hall who still uses a flip-phone :lol: and while a newer car would be nice, the taxes, registration, etc will still be several $k that I'd rather spend somewhere else.