2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

[lorenfb]

You are either misunderstanding some basics here, or just love to argue and obfuscate. I don't plan on spending long on this, but here goes for a short reply:

The controller (inverter) can't create energy, and the motor is not typically way over-designed to significantly increase its power
output with just a controller redesign. As I mentioned, the controller's firmware may limit some max power output, but little
can be gained without the battery being capable of supplying the necessary peak energy input - peak current continuously.

You don't understand (or are misrepresenting) where the 'bottleneck' is here for power flow. It isn't the battery, and it isn't primarily the controller. It is the inverter. Nissan wasn't trying to design a 200HP Hot Hatch with a 50 mile range when they put the original Leaf into production, and they still weren't trying for more power until the 2018 redesign. So they gave the drivetrain an inverter that balances cost, performance, and energy economy. They could have given the 30kwh Leaf 147HP, or even the 24kwh Leaf, but the marked drop in range with any spirited driving at all would have been bad for the car's reputation. You do have half a point, though: the 40kwh pack was needed before the inverter output was boosted, because they needed the extra capacity for adequate range with the extra power. I know that you think you know what's going on with C rates and voltages, and you seem to understand the concepts. You just don't understand how battery capacity relates (and doesn't relate) to horsepower in a modern, non-racing EV.

I think that once the 40kwh pack is transplanted into Gen I Leafs by backyard EV mechanics, they will be happy to discover that the range is closer to 200 miles than to 150 - mainly because of the smaller inverter.

From Ars Technica, when the 2018 came out (Nissan seems to have stopped mentioning the inverter early in 2018):

New powertrain

The outgoing Leaf might have sold well, but there's no escaping the fact that, by 2017's standards, it was outdated technology. The electric motor has been carried over, but there's a new inverter, among other improvements. Power output is boosted from 80kW (107hp) to 110kW (147hp), and it's more torquey—320Nm (236ft-lbs) in the 2018 versus 254Nm (187ft-lbs) in the old model.

You're obfuscating the key issues:

1. The controller and the inverter are the basically the same elements, i.e. it's just a matter of nomenclature.
2. Energy output is <= energy input
3. HP (horsepower) = Torque X RPM X Constant = Power = Energy per unit of Time
4. Energy = Power over Time = Integral of Power times dT
5. HP x T = Energy = kWh = Volts (supplied to the motor) x Amps (supplied to the motor - peak) x Time

PM (permanent magnet) Motor

1. The output torque is limited by the magnetic field developed by the PM (permanent magnets) and the magnet field developed
in the stator by the battery voltage (~360 volts) and the battery's current supplied via the motor controller & a phase angle of the field
2. The stator's magnetic field is a function of the current developed in the stator via the controller (inverter) per unit time.
3. The controller is basically a time controlled switch that applies the battery voltage to the stator (phase-related), which results
in a field current. The maximum field current is related to the field inductance and the peak current of the field over time.

Bottom line: Maximum motor HP of the Leaf PM motor:
a. overall limitation - power input - battery voltage and peak battery current, & the magnet field of the magnets and stator
b. controller maximum design limit - the driver semiconductors Vmax & Imax, and power losses (switching times/Vsat)
c. firmware preset max field current limit <= to controller maximum design limit AND the peak battery current & battery resistance
d. maximum magnetic field developed by the permanent magnets and stator's magnetic field
e. motor load - vehicle overall weight/losses, and motor gearing

 

[LeftieBiker]

Someone else can take this over. So much verbiage, without an actual counter-argument...

 

[lorenfb]

Someone else can take this over. So much verbiage, without an actual counter-argument...

To basically increase the Leaf's HP output by more than 5-10%, besides tweaking the PM motor controller or its firmware,
would require a redesign of the PM motor, e.g. more powerful magnets and/or a bigger stator. Also, the peak current of the
battery would have to be increased, if it where incapable of supplying the necessary peak field current necessary for the new
peak power (HP).

Bottom Line: The Leaf Plus has a more powerful re-designed motor and a new battery which can supply higher peak currents.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Cwerdna wrote:

If you go to https://www3.nissan.co.jp/vehicles/new/ ... tions.html and select 40 vs 62 kWh, they say it's the EM57 motor for both.

'13 to '17 Leaf also had EM57: https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=25267.

 

[TexasLeaf]

Thanks. I've just been searching on the Nissan USA site since cars.com, autotrader, etc. don't seem to distinguish the 40 kWh from the 62 kWh Leafs. Though I just checked cargurus and they've added SV Plus and and SL Plus as searchable trims.

You to use the VIN on AutoTrader.com and Cars.com to find the Plus. The Plus has a B as the fourth character in the VIN but also the more expensive listings are a Plus.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I wouldn't be shocked to learn that they kept the 147HP version of the Motor in the S. I'm not claiming that's the case, but I wouldn't discount the possibility.

that is rather doubtful

 

[lorenfb]

I wouldn't be shocked to learn that they kept the 147HP version of the Motor in the S. I'm not claiming that's the case, but I wouldn't discount the possibility.

that is rather doubtful

Yes, the Nissan website agrees.

https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/electric-cars/leaf/compare-specs.html

It's my error and wishful thinking that Nissan might consider marketing the S Plus for more appeal, i.e. smaller motor with bigger battery
for a lower price. Like Nissan thinks they'll be somewhat competitive with the Tesla M3 now at $35K with a bigger motor, please!

 

[SageBrush]

It's my error and wishful thinking that Nissan might consider marketing the S Plus for more appeal, i.e. smaller motor with bigger battery
for a lower price. Like Nissan thinks they'll be somewhat competitive with the Tesla M3 now at $35K with a bigger motor, please!

The Nissan edge is a battery to fry an egg on. The higher current drain just expands the culinary possibilities. :lol:

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I wouldn't be shocked to learn that they kept the 147HP version of the Motor in the S. I'm not claiming that's the case, but I wouldn't discount the possibility.

that is rather doubtful

Yes, the Nissan website agrees.

https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/electric-cars/leaf/compare-specs.html

It's my error and wishful thinking that Nissan might consider marketing the S Plus for more appeal, i.e. smaller motor with bigger battery
for a lower price. Like Nissan thinks they'll be somewhat competitive with the Tesla M3 now at $35K with a bigger motor, please!

LOL! Your statement implies the 40 kwh performance is not worthy and I STRONGLY disagree. My 40 kwh LEAF has more than enough acceleration.

Besides all this is predicated on the false pretense that the higher power is responsible for the lesser range on the larger wheeled SV/SLs...

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

that is rather doubtful

Yes, the Nissan website agrees.

https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/electric-cars/leaf/compare-specs.html

It's my error and wishful thinking that Nissan might consider marketing the S Plus for more appeal, i.e. smaller motor with bigger battery
for a lower price. Like Nissan thinks they'll be somewhat competitive with the Tesla M3 now at $35K with a bigger motor, please!

LOL! Your statement implies the 40 kwh performance is not worthy and I STRONGLY disagree. My 40 kwh LEAF has more than enough acceleration.

Besides all this is predicated on the false pretense that the higher power is responsible for the lesser range on the larger wheeled SV/SLs...

FYI; the website info does not agree with the owners manual... Interesting.

 

[lorenfb]

that is rather doubtful

Yes, the Nissan website agrees.

https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/electric-cars/leaf/compare-specs.html

It's my error and wishful thinking that Nissan might consider marketing the S Plus for more appeal, i.e. smaller motor with bigger battery
for a lower price. Like Nissan thinks they'll be somewhat competitive with the Tesla M3 now at $35K with a bigger motor, please!

LOL! Your statement implies the 40 kwh performance is not worthy and I STRONGLY disagree. My 40 kwh LEAF has more than enough acceleration.

Besides all this is predicated on the false pretense that the higher power is responsible for the lesser range on the larger wheeled SV/SLs...

1. Please re-read what I posted, i.e. there's really no need for a greater HP motor for the low-end Leaf Plus (S). My 2013 has adequate
performance (HP) for my needs. I couldn't less about more HP when driving a BEV.
2. The range one gets with basically any BEV is a function of how one uses his foot. Having a larger motor (more HP) will have a marginal
if any effect on the BEV's overall efficiency, given other factors, e.g. Cd & weight.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Completely agree. My 13 also has plenty of umph for what we need. Will take range over sport, not to sound too boring.

If sticker is 215/226 , hoping I can get 250 at an ambient 55mph steady state. With Electrify America, cross country might start to be a reality. At least in first 3 years.

Counting the days to our May build date for our SV Plus.

 

[lorenfb]

If sticker is 215/226 , hoping I can get 250 at an ambient 55mph steady state.

Last time in the Chicago (near O'Hara - Mannheim Rd), best was about 45. Here in SoCal, rarely more than 50 for me and in the
right lane. Actually, desirable for me to have a somewhat slow congested freeway speed (better range), and safer driving for all.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Completely agree. My 13 also has plenty of umph for what we need. Will take range over sport, not to sound too boring.

If sticker is 215/226 , hoping I can get 250 at an ambient 55mph steady state. With Electrify America, cross country might start to be a reality. At least in first 3 years.

Counting the days to our May build date for our SV Plus.

Initial reports of 250 mile range and yeah, the weather is near perfect driving weather.

 

[LeftieBiker]

The Gen I Leaf was a little anemic above 40MPH. I think that the Gen II Leaf is fine at 147HP and 214 (?) lb-ft of torque.

 

[lorenfb]

Run-Time: Similar approach used to evaluate a UPS (uninterruptible power supply).
Notes:
1. The nominal assumed battery voltage is 360 volts.
2. The battery losses (Battery Heat) weren't considered in the theoretical run-time.
3. The ratio of motor Power(kW) to Battery (Ahrs) is basically 1.0 per all Leaf models, i.e. motor output is highly correlated to battery Ahrs.
4. All Leaf batteries were assumed to have an internal resistance of .100 ohms (100 mohms - 24/40 kWh batteries verified).

 

[BrockWI]

Interesting information. I would love to see power consumed at 60 mph or 100 kph across all three / four.

I would assume less overall pack internal resistance given the same load as the pack size increases, which should in turn reduce overall loss as well? Although the number above seem the opposite of that or am I forgetting my electrical engineering I took 30 years ago in college

 

[LeftieBiker]

3. The ratio of motor Power(kW) to Battery (Ahrs) is basically 1.0 per all Leaf models, i.e. motor output is highly correlated to battery Ahrs.

No. Also, there was no 83AH pack between 2011 and 2015. I assume you made that chart yourself...?

 

[lorenfb]

3. The ratio of motor Power(kW) to Battery (Ahrs) is basically 1.0 per all Leaf models, i.e. motor output is highly correlated to battery Ahrs.

No.

Do the calculations yourself, i.e. the data are NOT my data but Nissan provided data.

I assume you made that chart yourself...?

Yes. The Ahrs for the 30 kWh battery is: 30 kWh/360 = 83 Ahrs (nominal battery voltage of 360)
OK, then the 30 kWh battery was in 2016.

 

[lorenfb]

Interesting information. I would love to see power consumed at 60 mph or 100 kph across all three / four.

The motor & controller (inverter) efficiency should be fairly close for all Leafs. Yes, the more powerful drivetrains are possibly
a few percent less efficient, but not much. Again, it's all about the Cd, tires, and weight of the various models which affect the
more significant losses.

I would assume less overall pack internal resistance given the same load as the pack size increases, which should in turn reduce overall loss as well? Although the number above seem the opposite of that or am I forgetting my electrical engineering I took 30 years ago in college

Agree, more batteries in parallel to develop more Ahrs should reduce the internal resistance, assuming the same chemistry.
Very basics tests on the 2018 (40 kWh) battery indicated the same internal resistance as my 24 kWh battery, strange.
I made the assumption for simplicity that the internal resistance was about the same for all Leafs. My Leaf's resistance
measured over about 5 years was nominally about 60 mohms and increased over time (Hx). LeafSpy has a feature which
can determine the battery's internal resistance of any Leaf. If the higher kWh battery Leafs have lower internal resistance
values than the smaller battery Leafs, then the higher kWh Leafs would be more efficient. My Leaf on level terrain consumes
about 30 - 35 amps (17 HP, 45-50 MPH), the battery loss (.10 ohms) is ~ 120 W.