2015: Battery Data Report @ 100% Charge

[BooKittyLeaf]

This makes me think that maybe dealers should get cars without a battery, or a limited speed temp battery. Use a demo battery for the cars they need to test drive and then install a new battery that was kept inside during the pdi.

Maybe this is part of why tesla doesn't like the dealer model.

[/quote]

Yes - I thought of that as well, but could not find a way (by the minds of the Dealers) of executing that and maintaining their margins.

a Test Mule Leaf would be great, and the actual cars for sale kept in Climate controlled shop/garage would eliminate the need for labor to install fresh battery at point of sale.
Real-estate & building costs of course.

BUT, its the Auto Industry - and they want to put YOU in the CAR you LIKE on the LOT so you fall in love with it & have to have it- better sales tactics for them. If they said drive his one, and if you like it, we have the ones in the back ready to sell - they looses the the edge.

Best bet I believe to take your OBD2 & Leaf Stat/Spy & plug it into the car you want. Dont like the numbers, move on. Wish I had Leaf Stat earlier!

 

[Nubo]

so now its 96 miles? and you are complaining about what??

FYI; 25 GIDs is not 15 miles. its more like 7-8. if a GID is 80 wh then 25 GIDs is 2kwh. so maybe 9 miles in your driving scenario above.

there have been a lot of reports of widely varying readings WITHOUT widely varying usable range. I think at this point you simply need to just drive it. looks like you are not going to lose a bar anytime soon

I would not consider driving down to Turtle mode with 1% a useable range, even if it is 96 miles - thats completely unrealistic.

I'm not sure why you keep making that argument. It's not a matter of being "realistic" vs. "unrealistic". Max range is what it is.

Nobody is claiming that you should be turtling the car on a regular basis. But maximum range quite naturally implies fully draining the battery. It's not a serving suggestion, it's just the only way to have a common baseline between cars. It's the only way to have a consistent discussion. Likewise, the GOM is estimating maximum range, not "BooKittyLeaf comfort zone range".

96 miles would seem to imply that you have a fairly good battery. However your test course presents a lot of variables; stops and starts and variable speeds for example. You might want to follow Tony William's lead and test the range by driving at a constant speed on a course with as few hills as possible and on a day with calm winds. A constant 65 mph on the freeway (and therefore a consistent power draw) will give a more reliable indication than a drive with part freeway, part side streets with lots of stopping. Search the forum for the range tests Tony coordinated for the Phoenix cars.

I think what people are trying to say is that actual real-world range is the ultimate proof of your battery condition and it is possible that you see a lower Gid count reported even though your battery is closer to a 100-percent performer. Or you may have a weak cell or two as others suggest. Getting the cell-pair voltages seems like a good idea.

 

[BooKittyLeaf]

"BooKittyLeaf comfort zone range".

Excellent - thats great
Now my wife's BooKitty Comfort range is 3 times what she needs :roll:

All kidding aside, you are right - Maximum range is what it is.

I read through Tom Williams lead and another by him regarding the Capacity & Range - (266 gids x 80w = 21280 ((21.2 kw)) so, Im getting decent performance - specially at 96 miles "MAX"

My test course is perfect - its how I drive daily. The described tests are fine, but nobody drives like that, so to me its pointless, unless its a competition to see who can go the farthest on one charge.

You are exactly correct regarding actual real world range as being the ultimate proof of battery condition - AGREED

Regardless of the course, my SOH & HX will remain the same as the course will determine max range and wont effect the SOH by any significant measure.
Perhaps LeafStat give me to much information, and I see something I dont like and want to resolve it if possible - even though the car performs well

None the less, bottom line for me, is if the majority of new 2015 batteries are showing 95+% SOH & HX, Im curious why mine shows 85% on both.
I want to know what that means, and I like to learn about new things - as I am about the Leaf... its a fun process.
So despite my Max Range and performance, I believe something is amiss with this battery, weather its realized or just superficial, I still want to dig into it.
And if there might be something I can do about it, all the better.

I am favoring the idea of a few weak cells as you and others have suggested. I will need to aquire the use of LeafSpy to proceed further.

Until then, I drive the Leaf like crazy and enjoy it - great car.

 

[DaveEV]

BooKittyLeaf, we're missing a few bits of data from your test to really know just how good your battery is:

1. What did the car report as your mi/kWh efficiency for your trip? (What does EcoMile "4.3/4.0" mean exactly?)
2. How much energy from the wall went back into the battery to charge from turtle to 100%?

If either 4.3 mi/kWh (22.3 kWh usable) or if at 4.0 mi/kWh (24 kWh usable) is correct, your battery is either normal or better than normal.

 

[Nubo]

My test course is perfect - its how I drive daily. The described tests are fine, but nobody drives like that, so to me its pointless, unless its a competition to see who can go the farthest on one charge.

The point of a standardized test isn't to take your daily drive. Nor is it a competitive stunt. It's so that you can compare performance against a standard baseline, eliminating as many variables as possible.

Since nobody else drives your route every day, you only have your one result and nothing to compare it to. 96 miles doesn't mean much without some knowledge of how much energy was spent. Even a weak battery can be coaxed into a 96 mile drive under certain driving conditions; likewise a strong, brand new battery can be drained in 50 miles or less under other conditions.

 

[keydiver]

Does Leaf Spy work with a Wi-Fi OBD2 adaptor?

LeafSpy uses a Bluetooth version of the OBDII adapter, but I'm sure that most people in your area who have the LeafSpy app also have the right adapter for you to borrow.

 

[BooKittyLeaf]

Does Leaf Spy work with a Wi-Fi OBD2 adaptor?

LeafSpy uses a Bluetooth version of the OBDII adapter, but I'm sure that most people in your area who have the LeafSpy app also have the right adapter for you to borrow.

Yup - I thought of that just after I pushed submit - why would someone have LeafSpy and not have an OBD2 for it :roll:

 

[BooKittyLeaf]

Thanks Guys

- answers:

1. What did the car report as your mi/kWh efficiency for your trip? (What does EcoMile "4.3/4.0" mean exactly?)
ANSWER: my bad on termanology I guess. Yes, 4.3 mi/kWh efficiency. Actually it reads 4.3 on the DASH, and 4.0 in the NAV screen - not sure why its different


2. How much energy from the wall went back into the battery to charge from turtle to 100%?
ANSWER: Not sure. But I have a Clipper Creek HCS-40 L2 unit. it puts out 7.7kw / 32 amps. Our LeafSV has 6.6kw charger (6600w / 240v = 27.5a) so pretty sure the Leaf was pulling all 27.5 amps/6.6kw - or close to it with efficiency losses, etc...

It took 4hrs 45 min to charge from 1.17% - 96.8% (Leaf Stat) So I guess you can figure 6.6kw x 4.75 hours = 31 kw?? but that doesn't make sense cuz its a 24kw battery - So I guess Ohms Law doesnt apply (hours)? or Im missing something.

3-My perfect Test Course:
True - for comparing Stats I cab see the need for consistency - point taken

I will try & get some data consistent with the established test.

Meanwhile,I had to take my Leaf back to dealer to fix a trimpiece.
They gave me a 2014 Leaf S to use (2,000 miles) Im gonna charge it up & compare it to my 2015.
As of the drive home, the 2014 has 88.3% SOH where as my 2015 has 85.6% SOH. & the 20014 has 58.5Ahr vs mine with 56.73Ahr

Also, I spoke with the "Leaf Tech" in the Service dept. Briefly explained my concerns (Low Gids, SOH) they "said" they had no idea what I was talking about. They also said Nissan wont do anything unless its at 9 bars or less - and they said it 12 different ways about two dozen times.
I tried to explain that its a new car with 500 miles and 85% SOH/Capacity & low gids already - So no help from the service dpt!

 

[DaveEV]

1. What did the car report as your mi/kWh efficiency for your trip? (What does EcoMile "4.3/4.0" mean exactly?)
ANSWER: my bad on termanology I guess. Yes, 4.3 mi/kWh efficiency. Actually it reads 4.3 on the DASH, and 4.0 in the NAV screen - not sure why its different

Did you reset either or both right before the range test? It's common for one or the other to differ by 0.1 mi/kWh, but not usually more than that. If you did not reset, then the numbers are not valid and can't be used for the purposes of determining usable capacity in your range test.

2. How much energy from the wall went back into the battery to charge from turtle to 100%?
ANSWER: Not sure. But I have a Clipper Creek HCS-40 L2 unit. it puts out 7.7kw / 32 amps. Our LeafSV has 6.6kw charger (6600w / 240v = 27.5a) so pretty sure the Leaf was pulling all 27.5 amps/6.6kw - or close to it with efficiency losses, etc...

It took 4hrs 45 min to charge from 1.17% - 96.8% (Leaf Stat) So I guess you can figure 6.6kw x 4.75 hours = 31 kw?? but that doesn't make sense cuz its a 24kw battery - So I guess Ohms Law doesnt apply (hours)? or Im missing something.

Your LEAF will pull a maximum of 27.5A, but won't pull that much for the entire charge period. In fact, for the last hour it probably pulled significantly less. Unless you have a meter that can accurately measure actual power drawn, this doesn't help us.

I tried to explain that its a new car with 500 miles and 85% SOH/Capacity & low gids already - So no help from the service dpt!

Like I said before - your car is most likely normal and the LBC (lithium battery controller) does not have an accurate picture of battery capacity for some reason.

 

[azguy]

2015 S LeafSpy readings ,93 SOH after 4000 miles did not expect this .
Due for my first service not sure if leaf expert will come up with some findings

2/9/2015
GIDS 271 SOC 97.1 SOH 93 Ahr 57.78 Odo 4091 miles L1/L2 219 QC 7


7/22/14 readings

GIDS 291 SOC 96.7 SOH 100 Ahr 64.37 Odo 213 miles L1/L2 13 QC 3

 

[lorenfb]

2015 S LeafSpy readings ,93 SOH after 4000 miles did not expect this .
Due for my first service not sure if leaf expert will come up with some findings

2/9/2015
GIDS 271 SOC 97.1 SOH 93 Ahr 57.78 Odo 4091 miles L1/L2 219 QC 7


7/22/14 readings

GIDS 291 SOC 96.7 SOH 100 Ahr 64.37 Odo 213 miles L1/L2 13 QC 3

My 2013 (Prod. 9/13, Del. 12/13) at 3.7K had 60.5 Ahr. Now at 16K is has 57 Ahr.

Check and see where the 1st bar 'drops' (Ahr), after a 100% charge which provides a rough indication
where the 1st bar will actually be lost.

 

[BooKittyLeaf]

Like I said before - your car is most likely normal and the LBC (lithium battery controller) does not have an accurate picture of battery capacity for some reason.

OK - that would make some sense out of my numbers (good range, low SOH) But the GIDs still looks suspicious.

Also, I didn't realize you can reset the Mile/kwh in the NAV as well - I will reset both & track it.

Your LEAF will pull a maximum of 27.5A, but won't pull that much for the entire charge period. In fact, for the last hour it probably pulled significantly less. Unless you have a meter that can accurately measure actual power drawn, this doesn't help us.

Oh, I forgot about the last part of the charge slowing down - my bad... so a simple calculation work work anyway

I spoke with Nissan Leaf Support, who suggested I have a Battery Check performed now to check for any issues and as a way to document my concerns about the battery - as in, new car starting out with battery issues (if thats the case). The car was sitting outside on the Dealer Lot for FOUR month's in Summer/fall in Phoenix, probably with a full charge before I leased it in January. This will be covered under the new car 8yr/100,000 warranty and does not effect the two free annual maintenance Battery checks.
If there are bad cells, or the pack has an issue, they will replace the cells or pack under the 8yr/100,000 mile warranty. The 5yr/60,000 capacity warranty will still be in full effect.

So I asked the Dealer to do a battery check while the car is there for the trim piece fix.

While this does sound good up front, I have my doubts - that they will not report anything more in depth than 12 capacity bars & tell me the battery is great... now run along kid your bothering me!

What can expect from a battery check???

 

[Reddy]

So I asked the Dealer to do a battery check while the car is there for the trim piece fix. While this does sound good up front, I have my doubts - that they will not report anything more in depth than 12 capacity bars & tell me the battery is great... now run along kid your bothering me!

What can expect from a battery check???

Unfortunately, that's exactly what you will get. 5 stars on all categories and run along.

 

[keydiver]

Unfortunately, I believe that all of the important data is simply uploaded to Nissan, and the local tech isn't taught how to interpret any of it. So, all most of them see is the same stupid printout that they hand you a copy of, with all 5 stars. Perhaps someone at Nissan corporate will look deeper into the data and see that your capacity is actually down 15% already. Are you asking also for the cell balance test that TimLee mentioned?

 

[BooKittyLeaf]

Is the cell balance test a separate test from the regular battery test. Will I need to ask the dealer to perform a cell balance test specifically?

 

[RegGuheert]

Is the cell balance test a separate test from the regular battery test. Will I need to ask the dealer to perform a cell balance test specifically?

Good question!

I recently gave a fairly detailed description of a test the dealer can do entitled "Cell Voltage Loss Inspection" which tests for cell imbalances, but it assumes they are due to cell problems rather than just normal imbalance.

IMO, the above test is somewhat meaningless without the battery being fully balanced, but I do not think Nissan has a way to distinguish between an actual problem and just normal imbalance conditions.

For instance, last winter I observed that cell-pair 37 failed the above test on multiple occasions, and I thought perhaps it was degrading faster than the rest of the cells in the pack. But this winter I do not see any indications that cell-pair 37 is a problem, so perhaps it was just out of balance with the rest of the pack a year ago.

 

[BooKittyLeaf]

I recently gave a fairly detailed description of a test the dealer can do entitled "Cell Voltage Loss Inspection" which tests for cell imbalances, but it assumes they are due to cell problems rather than just normal imbalance.

Thankss!

I read the link describing the CVLI. It looked great, but admittedly a lot if it s over my head. But I did notice several issues you had with your battery rustling from the certain Cell pairs being bad.
I dont have any signs of anything like that, which makes me feel better because I think Im up against a brick wall with Nissan - as in, they dont care and are not going to so anything for me.

I have my Leaf at a dealer this week fixing a trim piece. I asked them to do a battery test - they said OK.
I called again today after reading your post on the CVLI. Spoke with the Leaf Specialist AND the Service Manager. Told them I "Spoke with a Nissan Leaf Specialist about my battery concerns and they said to have a dealer to a CVLI Test" to perhaps give my request more 'Clout". I explained what is was briefly - and they quickly replied that they had never heard of that. Didn't know what I was talking about.
They said the Battery test was great with all 12 bars. and that I can have the Nissan Leaf specialist email them with the request for the CVLI... what ever that is!

So I can tell already that Im gonna get no where fast with this, unless I have a Lawyer or some way to apply enough pressure for them to do anything other than hand me a piece of paper with Unicorns and Rainbows and a Big Happy Face showing I have a great battery with 12 bars... Grrrrr!
So at this point Im inclined to just give up, drive the car & see how it goes. This does however put Nissan in a bad light for me, and our ideas of buying a second Leaf are fading fast. Maybe Chevy, or another brand would like me and my money better than Nissan does.

Leaf is a great car, but Nissan... not s much.... OK, end of rant

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

2015 S LeafSpy readings ,93 SOH after 4000 miles did not expect this .
Due for my first service not sure if leaf expert will come up with some findings

2/9/2015
GIDS 271 SOC 97.1 SOH 93 Ahr 57.78 Odo 4091 miles L1/L2 219 QC 7


7/22/14 readings

GIDS 291 SOC 96.7 SOH 100 Ahr 64.37 Odo 213 miles L1/L2 13 QC 3

So, either your car was made before the lizard battery, or the lizard battery still can't hold up to AZ?

In 6 months, 6k miles, my 2015 pack hasn't degraded at all here in the great white north.

 

[leafkabob]

2015 S LeafSpy readings ,93 SOH after 4000 miles did not expect this .
Due for my first service not sure if leaf expert will come up with some findings

2/9/2015
GIDS 271 SOC 97.1 SOH 93 Ahr 57.78 Odo 4091 miles L1/L2 219 QC 7


7/22/14 readings

GIDS 291 SOC 96.7 SOH 100 Ahr 64.37 Odo 213 miles L1/L2 13 QC 3

So, either your car was made before the lizard battery, or the lizard battery still can't hold up to AZ?

In 6 months, 6k miles, my 2015 pack hasn't degraded at all here in the great white north.

I did not think the Lizard battery was out in July, 2014. I thought they started installing them in September or so.

 

[BooKittyLeaf]

So, either your car was made before the lizard battery, or the lizard battery still can't hold up to AZ?

I understood that the Lizard Battery was started in April 2014 and would be in all 2015 Leafs.

I called Nissan Leaf Tech Support three different times, and based on my VIN number it was confirmed that my car does have the Lizard battery, amd, that all 2015 Leafs do have the Lizard battery.

I dont know any way of a visual identifier of the Lizard battery being in my car - via window sticker, stamp or sticker under the car. ???

My car was made in August 22