2013 LEAF Specs, Pricing, Options Released In Japan

[DaveinOlyWA]

That's a low-speed cycle. Only about 1.5 minutes are spent at 50 mph, about as much time at 40 mph, and lots of time between 20 and 25 mph.

Yes, but it is a apples to apples comparison. So, there is some 10% improvement in th Japanese cycle - we just don't know how that will translate here.

But here, we also have the 2cycle + adjustment to 5 cycle change. So, the change here won't be all that clear to us.

seems to me that speed would make it an "apples to apples" comparison in a vacuum. dont think we can make that same assumption anywhere else. a 10% improvement at 25 mph could easily be reduced to 2% at 60 mph due to increased air resistance, friction, etc.

the other thing is that the heat pump is very much a "climate dependent" efficiency gain. pretty sure none of these tests take climate into consideration which is probably one of the biggest reasons why these tests and ratings really mean so little in "our" world.

i think we gonna just have to wait until the product is here.

 

[surfingslovak]

That's a low-speed cycle. Only about 1.5 minutes are spent at 50 mph, about as much time at 40 mph, and lots of time between 20 and 25 mph.

Yes, but it is a apples to apples comparison. So, there is some 10% improvement in th Japanese cycle - we just don't know how that will translate here.

But here, we also have the 2cycle + adjustment to 5 cycle change. So, the change here won't be all that clear to us.

Yes, agreed, and I believe that I have never said anything else. It might be beneficial to understand the nature of JC08 better, and perhaps develop an appreciation why exactly a range increase was seen under that test cycle. Would you know if the cabin heater was operated for any length of time under the JC08 protocol?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

the Tesla S60 stats were released. the EPA giving it a 208 mile range, a drop from 230 miles supposedly on the 2 Cycle test, a 9.5% drop.

the Tesla S85 went from 300 to 265 on the same testing change or 11.5%.

some here state the LEAF takes a 30% drop in the "conversion" but we all pretty much know that drop is too big. there is simply too many people who can easily exceed 73 miles on a charge in good conditions.

**side track warning**
the problem with the EPA sticker which does apply to all cars is that there is no "seasonal" adjustment. now when tank ranges drop from a 6 day supply in Summer to 4 day supply in Winter, its easy to see that omission.

but with EVs especially in severe weather areas, we might see one third loss of range, I think a change needs to be effected and I really dont think we should wait for Uncle Sam to mandate it. It should be up to EV manufacturers to take the lead on this.

sure have them provide the B.S. that is required but on the same sheet also provide ranges based on zones where people can see the various range hits inherent to certain parts of the country.

This is currently my #1 agenda for Nissan.

** back to topic**

so if the 2 cycle test on the LEAF gets 100 on LEAF 1, and EPA says 73 but general consensus says 84 then that is about 16%.

So I would predict EPA to jump to 79 miles and most people to get near 88 miles (at 62 or whatever we decided the speedo should be adjusted too)

the reason for this is the 2 cycle is weighted very heavily to slower speeds and therefore the increase will be mitigated by the speed driven. I am guessing I could get 90+ miles easily because i generally drive 56-60 mph (unadjusted)

 

[surfingslovak]

The EPA has a nice section on their website describing the new 5-cycle test. The interesting thing is that they ask for vehicles to be tested in 20 F ambient during the cold cycle. I didn't look at this in detail, but the one question that would come to mind is battery temperature. Do you think that the car is allowed to soak in cold ambient temps for several hours before the test is executed? Even if that were the case, the results of this cycle are not broken out, they are likely rolled into the combined figure. I tried to find similar information on the JC08 test protocol, but I could not find anything nearly as detailed as this.


Click to open

 

[Herm]

I believe they soak the car at that temperature overnight, possibly 24 hours. That would mess up cars with TMS since it would try to keep the battery at room temperature.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

LOL!! thanks for the details, definitely a Wiki entry or sticky item

have to question the high speed test up to 80 mph in a few miles with 4 stops. talk about a "run and gun" driving scene.

not going to mention the duration of the AC test. looks like Nissan is not the only entity with something against AZ'ens...(that was a joke!!)

for move EPA rants

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2012/12/epa-mpgs.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GRA]

That's a low-speed cycle. Only about 1.5 minutes are spent at 50 mph, about as much time at 40 mph, and lots of time between 20 and 25 mph.

Yes, but it is a apples to apples comparison. So, there is some 10% improvement in th Japanese cycle - we just don't know how that will translate here.

But here, we also have the 2cycle + adjustment to 5 cycle change. So, the change here won't be all that clear to us.

Weight will matter a lot more in that city cycle than it will on the highway, so I don't see the EPA numbers using a mix of cycles being much bigger.

 

[evnow]

Weight will matter a lot more in that city cycle than it will on the highway, so I don't see the EPA numbers using a mix of cycles being much bigger.

I was thinking about it.

In general a weight reduction of 10% results in 5% improvement in efficiency. Obviously, Leaf '13 is not 20% lighter than '12 - infact I guess not even 10%.

So, a good question is, what else is contributing to the 10% improvement ?

 

[LEAFfan]

Weight will matter a lot more in that city cycle than it will on the highway, so I don't see the EPA numbers using a mix of cycles being much bigger.

I was thinking about it.

In general a weight reduction of 10% results in 5% improvement in efficiency. Obviously, Leaf '13 is not 20% lighter than '12 - infact I guess not even 10%.

So, a good question is, what else is contributing to the 10% improvement ?

The more efficient motor and drivetrain plus the extra regen will make up the extra 10%.

 

[evnow]

The more efficient motor and drivetrain plus the extra regen will make up the extra 10%.

How about the heat pump. I guess the Japanese cycle doesn't use the heater ...

Personally, if I move from my MY'11 (without the seat heater) to MY '13, I expect better mileage because of
- Cold weather package
- Heat pump
- Lower weight / more efficient drivetrain

BTW, even the 5 cycle EPA test doesn't use the heater. They should modify the test to use the heater. The test was designed primarily for ICE - so uses A/C which is much more of a drain than the heater in ICE cars. In EV, we know, it is the otherway round - A/C is more efficient than the heater.

 

[cwerdna]

LOL!! thanks for the details, definitely a Wiki entry or sticky item

Besides surfingslovak's link to EPA test details (those are really just a summary... the test procedure documents are WAY too long to read), I posted this long ago about the EPA tests: http://priuschat.com/threads/car-and-driver-the-truth-about-epa-city-highway-mpg-estimates.67235/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (written WAY before the Leaf and by itself the method of measurement of fuel consumption (by deriving it from tailpipe emissions), is obviously n/a for EVs).

I also posted http://priuschat.com/threads/car-and-driver-here%E2%80%99s-why-your-mileage-may-vary-a-lot-from-the-epa-estimates.111414/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; more recently.

 

[LEAFfan]

The more efficient motor and drivetrain plus the extra regen will make up the extra 10%.

How about the heat pump. I guess the Japanese cycle doesn't use the heater ...

Personally, if I move from my MY'11 (without the seat heater) to MY '13, I expect better mileage because of
- Cold weather package
- Heat pump
- Lower weight / more efficient drivetrain

BTW, even the 5 cycle EPA test doesn't use the heater. They should modify the test to use the heater. The test was designed primarily for ICE - so uses A/C which is much more of a drain than the heater in ICE cars. In EV, we know, it is the otherway round - A/C is more efficient than the heater.

Yeah, the heat pump will really help during your winter, but I've never used the heater and probably wouldn't use the HP either. I used my heated cushions only five times last winter.

 

[planet4ever]

The more efficient motor and drivetrain plus the extra regen will make up the extra 10%.

Personally, if I move from my MY'11 (without the seat heater) to MY '13, I expect better mileage because of
- Cold weather package
- Heat pump
- Lower weight / more efficient drivetrain

Yeah, the heat pump will really help during your winter, but I've never used the heater and probably wouldn't use the HP either. I used my heated cushions only five times last winter.

Personally I don't think there is going to be enough difference due to weight or drivetrain to amount to much more than 1%, but that's just my opinion. Since you don't use the heater, LEAFfan, and I seem to remember that you mostly coast rather than regen, I predict that you will see negligible improvement in the 2013.
But, on the other hand, you will still have 50% better range than I ever had :!:

Ray

 

[fotajoye]

The more efficient motor and drivetrain plus the extra regen will make up the extra 10%.

The test was designed primarily for ICE - so uses A/C which is much more of a drain than the heater in ICE cars. In EV, we know, it is the otherway round - A/C is more efficient than the heater.

EVs are a new technology and it's time for the EPA to devise a test group specifically for EVs. There has to be a better way for one to determine comparisons between EVs than the ICE tests. Mileage and the cost of operation(fuel costs) are among the more common driving factors behind the decision to purchase an ICE while range at specific speeds, battery life and the battery depletion rate appear to be main factors on which to base an EV purchase.

 

[JPWhite]

Personally I don't think there is going to be enough difference due to weight or drive-train to amount to much more than 1%, but that's just my opinion.

My estimate/opinion, for what its worth, is that we may be surprised to see a greater % increase in EPA range vs increases in the Japanese tests. Why? It is rumored that the motor will be more efficient at higher speeds, which should favor the US driver. So I'm going to brave and predict a 85 mile EPA range, which should mean several here should be able to squeeze 100 miles as a matter of routine.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

weight makes more of a difference than you might expect. depending on driving conditions, my family costs me .2-.3 miles/ Kwh. this observation has been repeated several times. granted, each trip is different but also have a handful of trips that are made frequently both alone and with the family and the numbers are pretty consistent and the weight difference is about 275 lbs. so not a whole lot different from the difference we see here.

did anything else change like wheel sizes?

 

[TonyWilliams]

did anything else change like wheel sizes?

17 inch wheel (option?) on SL.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

did anything else change like wheel sizes?

17 inch wheel (option?) on SL.

well that would be going backwards. bigger wheel means lower efficiency.

 

[RegGuheert]

It is rumored that the motor will be more efficient at higher speeds, which should favor the US driver. So I'm going to brave and predict a 85 mile EPA range, which should mean several here should be able to squeeze 100 miles as a matter of routine.

That was my first thought, but when I dug up the efficiency curves and re-linked them on Friday, I saw that efficiency of the drivetrain peaks at 95% over a broad range of torques at around 65 MPH. When you start with 95% efficiency, it is quite difficult to make any improvements. If you do improve efficiency above 95%, the improvements will be small, by definition.

However, if I look at the same plot and estimate what the efficiency is at 35 MPH, I would guess it is only around 90% in the current LEAF. (Note that the torque required to maintain 35 MPH is much lower than at 65 MPH.) So now I'm wondering if the new motor will feature a higher efficiency at the lower speeds and that the performance will be improved more in the Japanese tests than in the U.S. tests.

I suppose we will find out soon enough.

 

[TomT]

Yeah, I can easily count on one hand the total number of times I have used the heater as long as I have owned the car...

Yeah, the heat pump will really help during your winter, but I've never used the heater and probably wouldn't use the HP either.