2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

[achewt]

Hi all - I haven't lost any bars on my 2014 yet, but thought I would pop in and relay my experiences so far:

Manufacture Date: Feb 2014 (car was sitting on lot in Vancouver, BC)
Purchased Date: May 2014
Commute: 72 km one way
City: Nelson, BC; though the car spends 9-10 hours every day in Trail, BC, which is hotter and an open asphalt parking lot.
Climate: humid continental; summers are hot (for BC), averaging mid 20's (70 - 75) in May, June and September; 30's (85 - 100) in July and August. At night it is in a cool carport that is usually cooler than ambient temps as it is built into a hillside, so overnight temps of 10 (50) throughout summer. Fall/Spring are 5 - 15C. Winter is usually lows of -10 to 0; highs of -5 to 5. The car has been through two summers now, both hotter than average (especially this year).
Terrain: Mountainous! I gain/lose 500/650 m to and from work each day. Sometimes I drive to the nearby town of Rossland, so add another 600 m, charge while biking, then 600 m down and finish my commute.
Charging habits: I have an L2 at home, and charge to 100% every night during the non-summer seasons; typically arriving at work with 30 - 40% charge, then recharge to ~80% on L1 most days. Two months ago the first L2 was installed in Trail, so sometimes I use that charger and charge to 100% twice in a day. In the summer, I have messed with the timers to try and limit my charge to the 85-95% range. I rarely leave it sitting with 100% charge for more than a few hours. I've only QC'd 10 times while on long road trips, since there aren't any in my area.

I did not get an OBDII adapter/LeafSpy at first because I didn't want to bother with getting a different smart phone and thought I could track my apparent battery capacity by logging the dash data in a comprehensive fashion (log each trip, resetting the dash meters each time; recording km, km/kWh, avg speed, SOC% at start and end; I then calculated energy used, and divided that by SOC% used to infer the starting battery capacity in kWh).

After reviewing my daily commute data for the better part of a year, I found that my inferred battery capacity varied wildly from 16 kWh up to 24 kWh (sometimes higher, obviously not possible!) More troubling, I discovered that the Leaf screws up the efficiency calculation when incorporating regen energy. This became very obvious over some of the long descents that I can do in the Kootenays (> 1,000 m).

So, for the first year, I had no indication of what my actual capacity was at, though based on my real world observations, I inferred that it had not been much, since the GOM had only reduced starting range each morning by a few km from the year before (in similar conditions), and the amount of SOC% used for a given drive had stayed fairly constant. During a trip to the coast of BC, I was able to stop at an experimental DCQC station at BCIT, and the guy who runs the station came by and was able to read the capacity of my car as 20.7 kWh in June 2015.

This fall I discovered that LeafSpy was now available for the iPhone, so I bought the app and an adapter. I changed the settings to reflect a 2014 Leaf, but left the max GIDs at 281, and 77.5Wh/GID. I have since gathered the following readings:


Nov 7; 60,011 km; 62.94 Ahr, 96% SOH, 96.8% Hx, 273 GID (97% dash SOC), 21.2 kWh, batt temp 7.1
Dec 15; 61,963 km; 63.77 Ahr, 97% SOH, 97.9% Hx, 277 GID, 21.5 kWh (100% full balance charge), batt temp 8.4
Dec 29, 2015; 63,144 km; 63.79 Ahr, 97% SOH, 97.9% Hx, 267 GID, 20.7 kWh (97% dash SOC), batt temp 8.7
Dec 30, 2015; 63,265 km; 64.26 Ahr, 98% SOH, 98.5% Hx, 279 GID, 21.6 kWh (100%, 1 hr balancing), temp 7.4

Ambient temps over the last few weeks have been around -5 to 0C.

This morning I logged my trip to work with some screenshots of LeafSpy and plugged it into a spreadsheet, and it confirmed what I had noticed casually while viewing LeafSpy; often my energy remaining and energy consumed values do not total the amount of energy shown as available at the start of a trip. I left the house with 21.6 kWh available, and arrived to work with 8.4 kWh available and 11.5 kWh consumed for a total of 19.9 kWh. I extrapolated that trend, and noted that if I had driven to about 1 kWh remaining in the battery (as shown on LeafSpy), I would actually have been at 1 kWh remaining, 17.9 kWh consumed, for a total of 18.9 kWh.

That is a rather disturbing loss, and I'm not sure how to account for it. Can anyone provide some insight there? I'm hoping it is somehow related to the loss in capacity due to the temperature of the battery. Note that the efficiency shown in LeafSpy of 6.3 km/kWh matched that of the dash (though perhaps LS pulls that from the car?)

(Actually on that note, I would love it if someone could show me that calculation, and whether it shows up on LeafSpy, it would make my trip planner spreadsheet http://kootenayevfamily.ca/ev-basics/trip-planner-spreadsheet/ much more accurate if I could really figure out how many kWh are available for a certain battery temperature!)

I also have an OT question - does the value of a GID degrade along with the battery? Curious because have read elsewhere that guess is that the car uses number of GIDs to determine SOC% to display on the dash (and typically the LS GID% matches my dash SOC%, for the most part).

Edit: date of manufacture was actually Feb 2014, not Jan 2014 as originally stated.

 

[DaveInAvl]

2014 SL mfd. Jan 2014 delivered mid-March 2014
Asheville NC

1/2/16
14121 miles
AHr: 56.75
SOH: 86
HX: 84.94
Battery temp: apx 69 deg F

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

2014 SL mfd. Jan 2014 delivered mid-March 2014
Asheville NC

1/2/16
14121 miles
AHr: 56.75
SOH: 86
HX: 84.94
Battery temp: apx 69 deg F

got my 2013 a few months before you did. I have more than twice the mileage, less than half the degradation...

 

[dhanson865]

another early 2013 4 bar loser for the wiki, posted over at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19967&p=468491#p468491

|- style="background:#ffffff;" valign=top
| #??
| Aug 26 2016
| tungsten
| Honolulu, HI
| 48,053
| 42 months
| 03/13
| 2013 Model
| 406546 vin
|
|
| AHr 41.03, SOH 65%, Hx 56.06%. L1/L2: 1521, QC: 60. Previous owner reported 3rd bar lost in Feb 2016.

 

[arnis]

2014 July Leaf made in UK.
During 2+ year period and 61500km / 38000mi SOH/Hx dropped from near 100% down to around 95% within the 10 months.
And this year it dropped down to 90-91% (59-60Ahr) and is fluctuating around that for 2 months already.
Hardly ever over 6 TB in summer and hardly under 3 TB in winter (up to 10 days with 2 bars and only few trips with 7 bars).
Usually charge to 80%, discharge down to LBW (or VLBW during wet/chilly periods). Full acceleration/regen all the time :lol:
With normal foot I get 120km/75mi; with careful foot (but still going fast) I manage to get up to 150km/93mi (and this is
with 90% capacity left) in ideal weather. In extreme weather range can drop down to 90km/56mi.
Never see less than 5 regen bubbles at charge levels below 95% summer 90% winter.

I expect to lose 0 bars during warranty mileage. Expect to lose 4-5% more for July 2017.

 

[Phatcat73]

Honeymoon's over. 1st bar loss, 3.5 yr old Leaf in the Chicago area. I was flying high as the car had 0 reported loss after 20k miles & 2 years, which leaves me to believe these vehicles added some capacity buffer. Once that buffer runs out degradation became gradually consistent. Car use cases have decreased and we juggle with the ICE more often. Fortunately work commute is 10 miles round trip.

Looking to hold out with this Leaf until EV's with full autopilot are released or would consider some magical 40kWh upgrade option in the next couple years at less than $3k. However the car has taught me the value of a TMS.

Build 1/13
Purchase 3/13

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Honeymoon's over. 1st bar loss, 3.5 yr old Leaf in the Chicago area. I was flying high as the car had 0 reported loss after 20k miles & 2 years, which leaves me to believe these vehicles added some capacity buffer. Once that buffer runs out degradation became gradually consistent. Car use cases have decreased and we juggle with the ICE more often. Fortunately work commute is 10 miles round trip.

Looking to hold out with this Leaf until EV's with full autopilot are released or would consider some magical 40kWh upgrade option in the next couple years at less than $3k. However the car has taught me the value of a TMS.

Build 1/13
Purchase 3/13

what is your average miles/kwh?

 

[Phatcat73]

3.7 over the past year. All seasons combined.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

3.7 over the past year. All seasons combined.

and you are in Illinois?

well, I am averaging 4.66 miles/kwh from the dash so if your 3.7 is the same efficiency (probably not but also probably not statistically significant) from the dash, your 37,540 miles has probably cycled 11,529 kwh using 88% efficiency (which is probably a touch low)

while my LEAF has probably cycled 10,119 kwh in my 41,500ish miles.

It is this seemingly overlooked fact that could help you

 

[DaveEV]

However the car has taught me the value of a TMS.

Build 1/13

In your car, it's not the lack of TMS, it's the battery chemistry, unless you have a habit of QCing multiple times a day.

Consider that Tesla let's their pack get well above 100F before cooling and even lets you heat the battery for the sole purpose of extracting maximum performance.

It also appears that if you had picked up yiur LEAF a few months later you'd have a more durable pack.

 

[Phatcat73]

Re avg watts- I pulled it from the Leaf app

Re TMS- I compare the Leaf to the volt. Older volts w 100k miles have near 0 degradation. I associate degradation more to lack of TMS vs chemistry.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Re avg watts- I pulled it from the Leaf app

Re TMS- I compare the Leaf to the volt. Older volts w 100k miles have near 0 degradation. I associate degradation more to lack of TMS vs chemistry.

interested in your Volt degradation statement and how you came about your data.

there is no amount of TMS that will slow degradation by time so your statement at the very least is partially inaccurate

 

[Phatcat73]

http://ngtnews.com/2012-chevy-volt-maintains-100-battery-capacity-after-300000-miles/

 

[Levenkay]

So if Nissan had only billed the LEAF as having 40-ish miles of range, it too could have had a "zero degradation" battery.

 

[silverone]

So if Nissan had only billed the LEAF as having 40-ish miles of range, it too could have had a "zero degradation" battery.

It's really a question of function. My 40,000 mile Volt can still make my 35ish mile one-way commute on EV dependent on temperature, terrain, and tires just like it did on day one. If there's any degradation, it is time based and in the single digit percentage - otherwise it would be painfully obvious with such a relatively small overall EV range. Others with more time and mileage are not seeing significant differences either, and many have been regularly logging data with OBD tools that give raw and adjusted State of Charge numbers. I've seen way more impact to range with my tire choice.

I'm not hearing similar things for 40,000 mile Leafs because of obvious degradation. I'd like to think that I could get a used 2013 to serviceably do my commute for three years, but based on what I've read in the forums, I'm not sure that's the case.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

So if Nissan had only billed the LEAF as having 40-ish miles of range, it too could have had a "zero degradation" battery.

It's really a question of function. My 40,000 mile Volt can still make my 35ish mile one-way commute on EV dependent on temperature, terrain, and tires just like it did on day one. If there's any degradation, it is time based and in the single digit percentage - otherwise it would be painfully obvious with such a relatively small overall EV range. Others with more time and mileage are not seeing significant differences either, and many have been regularly logging data with OBD tools that give raw and adjusted State of Charge numbers. I've seen way more impact to range with my tire choice.

I'm not hearing similar things for 40,000 mile Leafs because of obvious degradation. I'd like to think that I could get a used 2013 to serviceably do my commute for three years, but based on what I've read in the forums, I'm not sure that's the case.

It is easy to notice a reduction in range when you are using all of the available battery as in the LEAF (using what? 93-94% of its capacity) verses the Volt that uses what? 65-70% of its available charge? but we know all this.

but then again, you already knew that and refuse to accept the fact that time degradation AND cycle degradation treats all equally so you do have degradation whether you accept that fact or not and yes you are right. it is all about function and you paid extra for that function to work as advertised for a longer period of time.

Everything is a trade off. I paid less for more (much more actually) function that will eventually get to the same level of function you paid for on day one. Knowing all I know, I would not change my decision (considering I am on LEAF II with LEAF III very likely in my near future, that should be obvious) but its based on my personal needs as yours are based on your specific circumstances.

Now if you don't charge at work, you are selecting an option I would not consider (already have a gasser) and if you do, the LEAF could serve you well beyond the 3 year period you mentioned.

FYI; If I lived somewhere else, I might have chosen a Volt (after the price cut. no way I would have bought at their introductory price and their lease terms sucked...)

 

[silverone]

So if Nissan had only billed the LEAF as having 40-ish miles of range, it too could have had a "zero degradation" battery.

It's really a question of function. My 40,000 mile Volt can still make my 35ish mile one-way commute on EV dependent on temperature, terrain, and tires just like it did on day one. If there's any degradation, it is time based and in the single digit percentage - otherwise it would be painfully obvious with such a relatively small overall EV range. Others with more time and mileage are not seeing significant differences either, and many have been regularly logging data with OBD tools that give raw and adjusted State of Charge numbers. I've seen way more impact to range with my tire choice.

I'm not hearing similar things for 40,000 mile Leafs because of obvious degradation. I'd like to think that I could get a used 2013 to serviceably do my commute for three years, but based on what I've read in the forums, I'm not sure that's the case.

It is easy to notice a reduction in range when you are using all of the available battery as in the LEAF (using what? 93-94% of its capacity) verses the Volt that uses what? 65-70% of its available charge? but we know all this.

but then again, you already knew that and refuse to accept the fact that time degradation AND cycle degradation treats all equally so you do have degradation whether you accept that fact or not and yes you are right. it is all about function and you paid extra for that function to work as advertised for a longer period of time.

Everything is a trade off. I paid less for more (much more actually) function that will eventually get to the same level of function you paid for on day one. Knowing all I know, I would not change my decision (considering I am on LEAF II with LEAF III very likely in my near future, that should be obvious) but its based on my personal needs as yours are based on your specific circumstances.

Now if you don't charge at work, you are selecting an option I would not consider (already have a gasser) and if you do, the LEAF could serve you well beyond the 3 year period you mentioned.

FYI; If I lived somewhere else, I might have chosen a Volt (after the price cut. no way I would have bought at their introductory price and their lease terms sucked...)

Sorry about my first post being in a controversial subject! No disrespect was intended to any of the forum membership.

My points on degradation are mostly around the fact that I have and use the full 10kWH ish of my battery 3x daily with three full charges - well technically 2 3/4 as my lunch trip is about 3/4 charge. I have been doing this for over 2 years and nearly 40000 miles. I would guess I'm at 1500 charge cycles today. I don't track any of this closely as it's not a thing to be concerned with in Voltland, and I realize my 1500 number is probably 60% of that since I'm only recharging 60% of total battery!

I may be seeing degradation. The engineer in me knows there must be some. There is no practical difference on what my car can do, as I still make 98 percent of my trips on EV overall -- closer to 100 percent from April to December every year. My GOM and actual range are the same as two years ago, and I still arrive at my destinations with low single digit numbers, just like day one.

Whether I paid more for the benefit the Volt has provided must be highly regional, as the LEAF was priced a little higher when I bought a few years ago. I'm in a non-CARB state, basically a distant Pittsburgh PA suburb so didn't get benefit of additional state monies but still netted out in the low 20s for the Volt.

All of those things are still in play for me, as I've considered a Used LEAF within the last year as a supplement for an additional driver in the household. New pricing in my area is still well into the 20s post credit, so that's not an option. Used LEAF's here seem to be lease end transfers from warmer areas that are typically 11 or 10 bar cars. My return commute essentially uses 40 EV miles due to terrain and speed differences. I struggle with how long would a 10 bar car be able to do that in January 0*F conditions? A used Volt vs Leaf seems to command a 3-5K difference.

 

[GRA]

Sorry about my first post being in a controversial subject! No disrespect was intended to any of the forum membership.

My points on degradation are mostly around the fact that I have and use the full 10kWH ish of my battery 3x daily with three full charges - well technically 2 3/4 as my lunch trip is about 3/4 charge. I have been doing this for over 2 years and nearly 40000 miles. I would guess I'm at 1500 charge cycles today. I don't track any of this closely as it's not a thing to be concerned with in Voltland, and I realize my 1500 number is probably 60% of that since I'm only recharging 60% of total battery!

I may be seeing degradation. The engineer in me knows there must be some. There is no practical difference on what my car can do, as I still make 98 percent of my trips on EV overall -- closer to 100 percent from April to December every year. My GOM and actual range are the same as two years ago, and I still arrive at my destinations with low single digit numbers, just like day one.

Whether I paid more for the benefit the Volt has provided must be highly regional, as the LEAF was priced a little higher when I bought a few years ago. I'm in a non-CARB state, basically a distant Pittsburgh PA suburb so didn't get benefit of additional state monies but still netted out in the low 20s for the Volt.

Just to be clear, the Volt's battery has suffered degradation but because GM decided to only use 65% of the total capacity when new, that degradation is hidden from the owner. In addition, they employed a very effective active TMS which slows down the rate of heat-related degradation, which combined with the relatively small SoC window allowed when new and the ability to open up that window as the battery ages, allows the Volt to appear to have no degradation from the user's perspective over a prolonged period of time. This was a very conservative approach by GM, and IMO absolutely the correct one when introducing a new tech to the public. I wish Nissan had been similarly conservative with its design decisions and marketing claims.

GM has gradually increased the % of total capacity usable when new as the Volt's battery has gotten larger, and the Gen 2 Volt can access something like 75% of it's total when new. It remains to be seen whether the Gen 2 Volt's pack will show the same apparent lack of degradation over 5 years or more as the Gen 1 did, as it's being used more aggressively. Personally, If I were getting a Volt 2 I'd prefer to have a shorter AER that could be maintained longer without apparent degradation, than a greater AER that will start to show degradation after a few years. We'll see how it works out.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I think that GM has copied Toyota's BMS approach with the Prius. NiMH batteries don't fare at all well in the long run when all or even 80+% of their capacity is utilized, but the Prius NiMH packs last so long, with so few problems, because Toyota lets the car use less than 70% of the pack's capacity, not letting it get, IIRC, over 80% or under 20%. This approach may well come into wider use as packs get higher in capacity, and not all of it is actually needed for acceptable range.

 

[swaltner]

I lost the first capacity bar on my Leaf yesterday morning. Details as follows:

2013 Leaf SV
Manufactured: Jul 2013
Delivered: July 2013 (factory order, so was on the dealers lot for less than 24 hours)
Max gid reading ever recorded: 267
12->11 bars on: 2013-09-06 - 36,147 miles, 240 gids
Location: Wichita, KS
Charging routine: Mostly 80% charge except for 100% charges right before departure (regularly during winter and infrequent at other times)