15 Mile Range

[theoldchum]

I recently purchased a 2011 Nissan Leaf with 26K on the odometer from Carmax. The capacity Bars indicated 10 bars of battery capacity and 52 miles range at 80% charge. I took possession of the car knowing that if the battery was bad Nissan retroactively upgraded the warranty to a complete replacement if the capacity fell below 9 bars which equates to roughly 70% of capacity. I brought the car to the dealer and Carmax agreed to pay the the diagnostics fee and I received a battery report with almost all 5 stars and 1- 4 star. I spoke to the technician and he stated he reset the car to charge 100% and I should get better range. It went 16 miles to turtle and indicated 57 miles range at full charge. I contacted The Nissan Leaf Customer Care Dept. and told them the dash board battery capacity gauge and range are woefully inaccurate and that Nissan needs to replace the battery since the real usable capacity of the battery has fallen below 20%. They asked if the dealer ever road tested the car, I knew the didn't. Now the dealer has had the car for over a week now and did more testing. The service adviser almost crapped his pants getting the car back to the dealership after a 10 mile test drive on the highway. Now Nissan wants the dealer to fiddle fart around for weeks longer unsealing testing and changing changing a module or 2 and see if that fixes it. I live in the Las Vegas Valley and the dealer doesn't want to proceed that way and frankly I am fed up with Nissan trying to place, as the dealer put it, "a band aid on the problem". My service adviser said he's never had such trouble getting them to go along with the dealer recommendation. When I requested a factory certified engineer be sent to check the car, In Nissan Leafs Consume Affairs own words, they consider the dealer to be their "eyes and ears" and " are qualified to asses the vehicle and decide what needs to be done to fix the car" I am taking my grievance to the next level with Nissan Consumer Affairs.

 

[desiv]

Sounds like something is wrong with that car (not just a degraded battery).
Nissan is going to have to fix it; should be covered under warranty.

Frustrating..
Sorry to hear that...

Would be nice if they got to the point that they just replace the battery, but they are within their rights to replace just cells if that is what is wrong.
It would be like you buying an ICE car and there was a problem with the engine.
It would be great if they just gave you a new engine, but they are going to want to try to fix it first.. ;-)

Good luck.

desiv

 

[theoldchum]

desiv.

The final version of the Class action suit states that Nissan no longer has the option to replace modules if the capacity falls below 9 bars as indicated by the capacity gauge. Since my capacity gauge wrongfully indicated 10 bars of usable capacity available, they are trying to penny pinch based on faulty equipment readings.

 

[desiv]

The final version of the Class action suit states that Nissan no longer has the option to replace modules if the capacity falls below 9 bars as indicated by the capacity gauge..

That's for capacity issues.
This isn't a capacity issue...

IANAL, but that would be my guess...

Good luck..

desiv

 

[theoldchum]

Capacity is the amount of charge the battery will accept and deliver. The battery would accept 5KW and deliver 5KW to dead on a 24KW capacity at 100%.

 

[desiv]

True, I should have said "degradation issues."

desiv

 

[minispeed]

Capacity is the amount of charge the battery will accept and deliver. The battery would accept 5KW and deliver 5KW to dead on a 24KW capacity at 100%.

I hate to play devils advocate as I can feel your pain as a customer having the car in but if you pulled this battery and measure the capacity on a bench test it would probably have much much more than 5kWh. What you are describing is probably a software/sensor/bad cell somewhere in the system that the leaf isn't letting the car go any further after it's taken 5kWh out of the battery.

 

[theoldchum]

The service representative said he saw notes from the test that module 96 is bad. Makes no sense to me because I thought there were 48 modules. Bottom line is the battery regardless of the reason, bad modules, sensors were ruled out, as was software, etc. was not able to deliver the the capacity equivalent to 9 bars or better. If the bad module or two is swapped out, I will be back within months because this battery has an inferior chemistry not suited to a high desert climate.

 

[GerryAZ]

There are 96 cell pairs with 2 cell pairs in each module so you are correct that there are 48 modules. 10 capacity bars remaining is reasonable for a car with the age and mileage you indicated. I routinely made my 52-mile round trip commute with A/C use and 8 capacity bars before Nissan replaced the battery pack in my 2011. The short distance to turtle that you are seeing is likely due to some software or hardware fault or a few bad modules and not indicative of gradual deterioration. Nissan should be providing you with a loaner car while they troubleshoot/repair your Leaf. If they get your car working properly by replacing a few modules or sensors, you may or may not qualify for a battery replacement under the 5-year 60.000-mile capacity warranty. My 2011 took a year to drop from 10 bars to 8 bars so I think your car will drop to 8 capacity bars late next summer. Therefore, the original in-service date will likely determine whether you qualify for a battery replacement. You might want to ask Nissan to extend the time on your capacity warranty to compensate for the time they have it in the shop to give you a better chance of dropping to 8 bars before the warranty expires.

Gerry

 

[theoldchum]

Thanks Gerry,
June 11,16 the car turns 5. I'm afraid of getting stuck with a brick come the end of next summer. I really like the car and want to drive the wheels off it.

 

[GerryAZ]

Theoldchum,

You won't get stuck with a brick--the range will gradually drop. If they don't replace the entire battery pack now, your best chance to qualify for a replacement by next June is to drive it as much as possible. If you miss the 5-year deadline, keep driving it until the range no longer meets your need. You could then purchase a new battery if you want to keep the car.

When the car is working right there is quite a bit of range after low battery warning and very low battery warning. I suggest you get something like Leaf Spy to give you more information than the dash displays.

Gerry

 

[cwerdna]

Capacity is the amount of charge the battery will accept and deliver. The battery would accept 5KW and deliver 5KW to dead on a 24KW capacity at 100%.

kW and kWh are very different metrics. It's the same as confusing gallons with horsepower. Think of kW = horsepower, kWh = gallons.

Leaf has about ~21 kWh usable out of a 24 kWh battery pack.

I suggest you get something like Leaf Spy to give you more information than the dash displays.

+1

 

[Valdemar]

Thanks Gerry,
June 11,16 the car turns 5. I'm afraid of getting stuck with a brick come the end of next summer. I really like the car and want to drive the wheels off it.

Nissan warranties their packs for 8 years/100k miles against failures aka manufacturing defects. Sounds like you have one of them. If it reoccurs after the capacity warranty is up next June you're still covered. If it is something else than the battery itself you have 5 years/60k miles coverage for the EV drivetrain which includes expensive items such as the motor, the inverter and the onboard charger I think.

 

[theoldchum]

Capacity is the amount of charge the battery will accept and deliver. The battery would accept 5KW and deliver 5KW to dead on a 24KW capacity at 100%.

kW and kWh are very different metrics. It's the same as confusing gallons with horsepower. Think of kW = horsepower, kWh = gallons.

Leaf has about ~21 kWh usable out of a 24 kWh battery pack.

I suggest you get something like Leaf Spy to give you more information than the dash displays.

+1

My error Gerry,
I meant to post KWH as measured by the Chargepoint station I frequently use. This isn't truly a measure of what is actually being stored in the battery due to the fact that the on board charger isn't 100% efficient. Most of my charges were with 2 to 6 miles range left as indicated. I was able to drive about 4 miles after dashes to turtle mode. I plan on getting a leaf spy after the situation is resolved so I can track the GIDS and state of charge more accurately.

 

[Graffi]

The car will die as soon as the lowest cell pair drops to 3.0v. If you have the Leaf Spy or LeafDD you can see the actual voltage of each cell-pair. It may be that only one cell is bad and will drop to 3.0v when you still have 18kwh of energy left in the battery. JMHO

 

[theoldchum]

The car will die as soon as the lowest cell pair drops to 3.0v. If you have the Leaf Spy or LeafDD you can see the actual voltage of each cell-pair. It may be that only one cell is bad and will drop to 3.0v when you still have 18kwh of energy left in the battery. JMHO

I don't know for sure, but I thought the modules were hooked in series. so I would think that the voltage in the cells would remain pretty consistent or at least equalize across the entire battery when not driven. I'm not sure if this is correct.

 

[keydiver]

Each pair of cells has its own BMS, to charge to the same voltage as every other cell. But, discharging is completely different, and the weakest cell in the link is going to determine the point where the car shuts down. The BMS won't allow the cell voltage to drop below 3 volts on ANY cell, to avoid damage to the cell. All the good cells might still be at 3.3 or 3.4 volts, but that one bad cell is going to shut things down. Give them a chance to identify any bad cells, but also be sure to get LeafSpy so you can keep an eye on the whole pack yourself.

 

[TimLee]

The car will die as soon as the lowest cell pair drops to 3.0v. ...

That appears to be incorrect.

Many people with newer packs have observed minimum cell voltage quite a bit <3.0 V at disconnect.

Turtle happens with 0.4 kWh Remaining and high voltage pack disconnect happens with 0.3 kWh Remaining.

With an older pack missing capacity bars minimum voltage at disconnect may be above 3.0 V. With a newer pack it may be lower than 3.0 V.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

It's been almost 3 months now, theoldchum, what happened? You got the car back?

 

[theoldchum]

Sorry for the lack of an update. The dealer replaced module 48. The car after 1 month dropped to bar 9. I recently got an OBD II reader and Leaf Spy. I am currently at 42.1 AH, so I should be dropping to 8 bars any day. I have till June before the warranty runs out, so I'll get the new pack anyways.