GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:25 pm

All GCC:
ACEA, Hydrogen Europe and IRU call on EU to ramp up investments in hydrogen refueling infrastructure
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/1 ... -acea.html

Toyota Mobility Foundation calls for third round of research proposals to support innovative hydrogen energy solutions
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/1 ... 1-tmf.html


US DOE and US Army collaborate to develop hydrogen fuel cell vehicle technology for emergency disaster relief
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/1 ... escue.html
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:35 am

GRA wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:56 pm
Feel free to read any of the thousands of posts that make up this topic, many of which discuss these and numerous other issues. If you're specifically referring to Pt, aside from numerous posts discussing how the amount per stack has been steadily decreasing and how research on non-Pt cells is progressing, the U.s. spot price per oz. on the U.S. market just now was $963.10, not "$3,000 to $10,000".

As far as how much that might cost per car, here's a quote from an article in May discussing Bosch's new cells:
Bosch's new hydrogen fuel cells use a drastically reduced amount of platinum, Reuters reported Sunday. The major auto supplier, which recently partnered with Sweden's Powercell, is working on a new fuel cell architecture that, according to Reuters' report, will "use only as much platinum as a diesel catalytic converter."

The average amount of a platinum in a hydrogen fuel cell, according to Reuters' conversations with analysts, is between 30 and 60 grams. Diesel catalytic converters, on the other hand, only use between 3 and 7 grams of the shiny stuff. At today's price of $27.54 per gram, that would reduce the platinum cost in each car from about $830 to about $83.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/bosc ... um-report/

I believe I posted a link to another article reporting this story up-topic [Edit. Found it]: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14744&start=4210#p557335

While I'm at it, from Sep. 4th:
China wants 1 million FCEVs on their roads by 2030
https://www.electrive.com/2019/09/04/ch ... s-by-2030/

The interim target is 50k in 2025.
Well, that was a short-lived goal. I'm glad china came to their senses:
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles ... -cell-cars
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
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SageBrush
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:17 am

^^
Hopefully this will help kill the hydrogen car folly by Honda, Toyota and Hyundai.
When they fold, CARB will too. The money goes a lot further when spent on L3 EV charging. Tesla is unusual in being able to build a 10 station supercharger for 1/10 the cost of a limited hydrogen fueling station but they have certainly proved that it is possible.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

Oilpan4
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:04 pm

I will believe the 7 gram of Pt big enough to
Power a car fuel cell when I see it.
SageBrush wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:17 am
^^
Hopefully this will help kill the hydrogen car folly by Honda, Toyota and Hyundai.
When they fold, CARB will too. The money goes a lot further when spent on L3 EV charging. Tesla is unusual in being able to build a 10 station supercharger for 1/10 the cost of a limited hydrogen fueling station but they have certainly proved that it is possible.
Agreed.
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SageBrush
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:57 pm

Bjorn Nyland posted a video on youtube outlining the costs and ability of a hydrogen fueling station:

$2 Million for a station that accepts liquid hydrogen;
$3 Million for a station that makes hydrogen via electrolysis
Both are limited to fueling ~ 4000 miles of driving range a day.

Compare that to Tesla Superchargers: 100 - 150 stations for the same installation cost that pump out 150 - 250 kW. Every hour of operation then moves cars ~ 125*200*4 = 100,000 miles.

At 1/3 utilization the Superchargers provide 200x more miles.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

Oilpan4
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:35 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:57 pm
Bjorn Nyland posted a video on youtube outlining the costs and ability of a hydrogen fueling station:

$2 Million for a station that accepts liquid hydrogen;
$3 Million for a station that makes hydrogen via electrolysis
Both are limited to fueling ~ 4000 miles of driving range a day.

Compare that to Tesla Superchargers: 100 - 150 stations for the same installation cost that pump out 150 - 250 kW. Every hour of operation then moves cars ~ 125*200*4 = 100,000 miles.

At 1/3 utilization the Superchargers provide 200x more miles.
Any word on how much the hydrogen will cost at these hydrogen making refill joints?
2011 white SL leaf with 2014 batt.
Chargers: Panasonic brick moded for 240v, duosida 16a 240v and a 10kw setec portable CHAdeMO
Location: 88103

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:09 pm

Oilpan4 wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:35 pm
SageBrush wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:57 pm
Bjorn Nyland posted a video on youtube outlining the costs and ability of a hydrogen fueling station:

$2 Million for a station that accepts liquid hydrogen;
$3 Million for a station that makes hydrogen via electrolysis
Both are limited to fueling ~ 4000 miles of driving range a day.

Compare that to Tesla Superchargers: 100 - 150 stations for the same installation cost that pump out 150 - 250 kW. Every hour of operation then moves cars ~ 125*200*4 = 100,000 miles.

At 1/3 utilization the Superchargers provide 200x more miles.
Any word on how much the hydrogen will cost at these hydrogen making refill joints?
The vendor decides, but for now $10 - $20 a kg paid for by the manufacturer since very few people would agree to pay for it out of pocket.

The arithmetic is fairly straightforward: figure 70 Kg H2 a day production for free at an electrolysis plant that costs $3M and is subsidized 50% by CARB. If the loan APR is ~ 10% then $150,00/365 = $410 a day in loan charges spread across 70 Kg production ... $6 a Kg to cover the loan interest. If the investor wants to pay-off the loan in 10 years it works out to $9.3 a Kg. No profit during those 10 years, and O+M yet to be covered ... that also presumes FULL utilization of the pumping station LOL
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:22 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:35 am
GRA wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:56 pm

<snip>

While I'm at it, from Sep. 4th:
China wants 1 million FCEVs on their roads by 2030
https://www.electrive.com/2019/09/04/ch ... s-by-2030/

The interim target is 50k in 2025.
Well, that was a short-lived goal. I'm glad china came to their senses:
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles ... -cell-cars

By that logic, China has also abandoned their goal for BEVs: as the article notes they've already reduced the subsidies for those.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 702
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:29 pm

GRA wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:22 pm
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:35 am
GRA wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:56 pm

<snip>

While I'm at it, from Sep. 4th: https://www.electrive.com/2019/09/04/ch ... s-by-2030/

The interim target is 50k in 2025.
Well, that was a short-lived goal. I'm glad china came to their senses:
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles ... -cell-cars

By that logic, China has also abandoned their goal for BEVs: as the article notes they've already reduced the subsidies for those.
Logic requires deduction with all the information, not just a subset. Remember, they did this with the solar industry as well. It's the grown up thing to do, subsidize the industry until it can stand on its own two feet. Ending the subsidies prematurely is a clear sign of killing the industry. But you knew that right?
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
100% Zero transportation emissions (except when I walk) and loving it!

GRA
Posts: 11177
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:55 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:29 pm
GRA wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:22 pm
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:35 am


Well, that was a short-lived goal. I'm glad china came to their senses:
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles ... -cell-cars

By that logic, China has also abandoned their goal for BEVs: as the article notes they've already reduced the subsidies for those.
Logic requires deduction with all the information, not just a subset. Remember, they did this with the solar industry as well. It's the grown up thing to do, subsidize the industry until it can stand on its own two feet. Ending the subsidies prematurely is a clear sign of killing the industry. But you knew that right?

Who says that BEVs are capable of standing on their own feet in China yet? It's not just subsidies, it's also mandates. The main thing driving BEV sales there, aside from the subsidies, is the fact that the government has made it almost impossible to get a license for an ICE in many major Chinese cities, but getting one for a ZEV is easy. Similarly, here in California, I've always contended (and surveys have backed this up) that especially for the higher end cars, the HOV perk is the most valuable selling point.

The way to show that BEVs are fully capable of standing on their own is to remove all direct to the customer subsidies, perks and mandates, and see what happens.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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