Used LEAF - Ways it could end badly?

I've been out of the LEAF game for a little over a year now so I apologize for starting this as I know the individual points have been discussed in other threads. I'm considering picking up an off-lease LEAF as the prices appear to be insanely cheap and wanted to make sure I had thought through the possible risks. This is purely a money thing now, no EVangelism, sticking it to OPEC, saving the planet or anything, just looking for cheap transportation among the spoils of early adopters, mandates, and government subsidies for cars nobody wanted

It appears a 2013 LEAF S can be had for approx $10k with relatively low miles (15k). Our commute requirements are 30 miles round trip in a warm climate. No need for 6kw charging or fast charging, only charging would be at home, we'd take the gas car for anything further. Aside from normal used car things like checking for accidents, what am I missing in my understanding of the risks?

-Starting in 2013, the 5 year 60k mile capacity warranty was part of the basic vehicle warranty coverage (ie not subject to any class action suit, previous opting in or out, etc)
-If I lose four bars within that time I would get a new battery with the improved chemistry
-If I don't lose four bars within that time I'm on my own, living with whatever capacity I'm left with unless I opt to replace the battery myself at a cost of about $6k.
-What if the previous owner/lessee didn't do the annual battery check? Will Nissan use that as a reason to avoid replacing the battery under the capacity warranty?
-The capacity bars shown on a used car on the lot may not be accurate because it could have been reset (This could actually work in my favor if I'm hoping to reach the threshold for replacement under the capacity warranty)
-Any major failure of the drive system would be covered under the 8yr/100k mile warranty
-The basic bumper to bumper warranty coverage is 3/36, so I'd be on the hook if something failed beyond that (like the A/C stopped working, power window, etc I'd be at their mercy for what repair would cost)

LTLFTcomposite said:

-Any major failure of the drive system would be covered under the 8yr/100k mile warranty)

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No. EV system and powertrain warranty is 5 years/60K miles.

You should be able to download the warranty booklet from https://owners.nissanusa.com/nowners/navigation/manualsGuide, when it goes back up. I'm hitting a 503 error right now "Service Temporarily Unavailable

The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later."

I wouldn't be surprised if it's having due to the stupid anti-whaling DDoS attacks on Nissan's sites (http://www.newsweek.com/nissan-hacked-anonymous-whaling-protest-415407 and http://www.techspot.com/news/63474-anonymous-forces-nissan-websites-offline-protest-against-continued.html).

My '13 Leaf SV w/premium buying saga outcome I posted at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=430825#p430825.

I'd get a subscription w/both Autocheck and Carfax to check for accidents, salvage title, etc. Also definitely get LeafSpy and an compatible OBD2 dongle to check SOH, Hx, VIN and odometer mileage.

"2013 LEAF S can be had for approx $10k with relatively low miles (15k)" is high to me, but each market's different and used Leaf prices went up (for some reason) after I bought my '13 SV w/premium. If I were you, I'd also consider a '13 SV.

Thanks for the reply and the clarification on the warranty; I'll try to download the official docs.

I was just looking at a no-haggle liquidator site called offleaseonly.com for that $10k figure. I'm figuring a new Sentra would be at least $15k as the rock bottom in new cars I'd consider so that looked attractive. Maybe the risks are just too great though and we'd be better getting something new with a full warranty.

With that commute in a warm climate, and the strong likelihood of qualifying for the capacity warranty, I would think a 2013 LEAF could work quite well for a number of years. Reliable and cheap. Plus electric drive is nicer.

Check to see if there are any new 2015s in the area. I bet you could get an S in the $15k +/-1k ballpark, depending on the sales tax in your state and assuming you can use the full 7,500 fed tax credit.

Figuring 2.5-3k depreciation per year, or what you would pay on a lease, I think you come out pretty well, and have full warranty. Also no near-term need to get new tires.

LTLFTcomposite said:

Thanks for the reply and the clarification on the warranty; I'll try to download the official docs.

I was just looking at a no-haggle liquidator site called offleaseonly.com for that $10k figure. I'm figuring a new Sentra would be at least $15k as the rock bottom in new cars I'd consider so that looked attractive. Maybe the risks are just too great though and we'd be better getting something new with a full warranty.

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I believe that the later 2013 MY Leafs already have an (the) improved chemistry. Personally, I would not buy any Leaf prior to the new chemistry for $10K or more since you are likely to get stuck with limited range AND just enough life left to probably outlive the degradation warranty, even in Florida. I also agree with Cwerdna on the pricing being high....by about $1-2K. Those things were going at auction for $6-7K.

Thank you all for the helpful feedback.
Regarding the prices, I'm not sure where to find cars available at better deals. Offleaseonly is supposedly take it or leave it prices as is carmax.
Who is liquidating all these off lease LEAFs?
A friend of mine said a relative just got a three year lease for $159/month with no money down. Could that be a real deal? You never know with stories like that.
For that matter if you're going new maybe it makes sense to be looking at the new 30kwh models, but presumably those are a lot more money.

2015's are where the deals are. There's still plenty around and they want to be rid of them. Lowball them and see who bites.

LTLFTcomposite said:

Thank you all for the helpful feedback.
Regarding the prices, I'm not sure where to find cars available at better deals. Offleaseonly is supposedly take it or leave it prices as is carmax.
Who is liquidating all these off lease LEAFs?
A friend of mine said a relative just got a three year lease for $159/month with no money down. Could that be a real deal? You never know with stories like that.
For that matter if you're going new maybe it makes sense to be looking at the new 30kwh models, but presumably those are a lot more money.

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Plenty of Volts on that site...

LTLFTcomposite said:

Thanks for the reply and the clarification on the warranty; I'll try to download the official docs.

I was just looking at a no-haggle liquidator site called offleaseonly.com for that $10k figure.

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OffLeaseOnly inventory can be very raw. Almost every car they have on any of their multiple Florida lots have accident history. They don't spend any money on reconditioning. It's like going to a Walmart layaway counter. The place is packed with families with screaming kids and have difficulty qualifying for loans.

You can get lucky occasionally but you have to go there and inspect the car BEFORE buying. You will find great prices but below average condition cars. If you're looking for first car for a college kid it's a good place to look.

A few months ago I went to the one in Orlando looking for a 2013 Lexus GS 450h hybrid. The prices they had listed were well below the norm. Every one had either mismatched paint on panels or was full of scratches.

The sales guys were very nice and polite. I wrote a decent review about the sales guy on dealerater.com

You can check Yelp about this dealer. Some interesting comments.

If you qualify for the $7,500 federal tax credit buying a new "S" Leaf can be real cheap and have a 3/36 warranty. A base 2015 Leaf lists for about $32k. After a dealer discount of about $5k and NMAC cash for another $5k should be able to buy it for $22k or $24k with Tax Tag and Title out the door. If you qualify for the $7.5k fed tax credit your out of true cost is only $16.5. On top of that you get a 0% NMAC financing for 6 years.

You have a new car with a factory warranty,

We bought a loaded 2015 SL 2 months ago, the last 15 leaf on the lot at the Fort Myers dealership. We got $11k off between dealer discount and NMAC cash and $7.5k coming back from Uncle Sam as soon as I file my 2015 taxes.

We went for a Loaded SL. There's a white 2015 at the Delray dealer that may work for you
http://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/657531976/overview/

Good luck.

Here's a 2015 "S" for $21,557 before federal tax credit. with dealer fees, tax, tag and to take It would probably go for $24k out the door before tax credit.

https://m.autonation.com/NEW/2015/Nissan/LEAF/all/1N4AZ0CP7FC329519/

Beginning to question whether it's worth going used... Certainly not worth it for $4k

LTLFTcomposite said:

Regarding the prices, I'm not sure where to find cars available at better deals. Offleaseonly is supposedly take it or leave it prices as is carmax.
Who is liquidating all these off lease LEAFs?

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I've never heard of Offleaseonly until now.

My used Leaf was bought from a used car dealer from a Manheim auction. I later found http://press.manheim.com/2010-07-27-Manheim-partners-with-nissan-motor-acceptance-corp-And-infiniti-financial-services-to-create-a-better-faster-way-to-turn-off-lease-inventory-into-sales. That's where he gets them from. The previous car he had also came from Manheim.

I've seen a fresh off the Manheim auction car show up at free public L2 charging once (due to all the stickers on it including a NISSAN AND INFINITI REMARKETING SERVICES sticker near the top of the windshield). Too bad I didn't think to look at the car and talk to the folks who got out. They were gone already until I realized it was fresh off the auction.

So, when Mannheim/NMAC offer an off-lease vehicle to the lessee first, is the price reduced from the residual...?

LeftieBiker said:

So, when Mannheim/NMAC offer an off-lease vehicle to the lessee first, is the price reduced from the residual...?

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I don't think the residual has any bearing w/the price auction price.

AFAIK, Manheim has nothing to do w/offering to the lessee. If it makes it to Manheim, the vehicle's already returned (aka grounded).

As for reducing the price to the lesee... well, I recall receiving snail mail from NMAC about $5K off buyout and learning of $6.5K off buyout from here at MNL and probably http://insideevs.com/nissan-announces-up-to-7000-credit-for-buying-your-leased-leaf/. I think I called NMAC to confirm the $6.5K off.

My leased '13 SV w/both packages (2 year/24K miles, I turned it in with under 24K miles) had a crazy residual of $20,601. I called NMAC and they told me it sold at auction for ~$10,600-something (it takes ~1 month for it to go from return to sold at auction). I gave the used car dealer I worked w/my VIN so he could tell me how much it went for @ auction, since he seems to get listings/has access to Manheim reports. He said $11K, which is probably about right due to the auction fees.

The '13 Leaf SV w/premium I own which also had under 24K miles was bought by my used car dealer auction for $8K + $325 auction fees. I bought it from him for $9,325 + tax and license.

I remember the used car dealer mentioning that there's a Nissan guy at the auction and for certain cars, the Nissan guy wasn't willing to let them go for below ____ amount. I don't remember the amount.

From http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=20608, it sounds like there might be some secondary (auction?) market (OVE.com?) for cars that don't sell at the normal auction. Google for manheim ove to see what I mean.

This is what prompted my question:

Designed specifically for Nissan Motor Acceptance Corp. and Infiniti Financial Services’ unique needs, the program starts to save time and money the moment a vehicle reaches the end of its lease term and is grounded at a dealer. Manheim built a web-based solution called Remarketing Portfolio Manager (RPM) for Nissan Motor Acceptance Corp. that begins the process by allowing grounding dealers to electronically submit a Federal Odometer Statement. From there, a simple and seamless four-step process gives both partners the flexibility to offer the grounded vehicle to the most likely buyers first, starting with the former lessee.


If the lessee opts out, the grounding dealer can opt in and has the exclusive right to purchase the vehicle until the end of the following day. If the dealer declines, Nissan and Infiniti dealers are invited to a closed sale on OVE.com, Manheim’s 24/7 online wholesale vehicle marketplace. Should the vehicle remain unsold, it moves to an open sale at a Manheim auction.

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They may simply be mis-describing the process, with the lessee opting out before the vehicle is "grounded."

^^^
Weird.

I wonder what price the grounding dealer is offered. If it's too high, then of course they don't want it.

For the auctions the used car dealer I worked w/went to, he did mention that for auctions on some weeks (not all), franchise Nissan dealers are allowed to have first dibs on cars before he can bid on them. I don't know if that's via OVE. Franchise Nissan dealers tend to take the ones w/CHAdeMO inlet, leaving few/fewer w/CHAdeMO left.

Auctions happens every 2 weeks.

If NMAC/Nissan/Manheim or whoever offered to sell me my former '13 Leaf SV w/both packages for $11K + tax and license, I'd have been more inclined to take it.

Instead, my discounted price was ($20,601 - $6,500 + $300 purchase fee) = $14,401 + tax and license. No thanks.

My residual is only a few hundred less. If they get it down to $12k I'm interested, keeping in mind the fees and tax I'd also have to pay. I'd be paying a modest premium for knowing exactly how the car was treated.