Oilpan4
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:06 pm

That article just appears to be generalized wishful thinking.

They want to spend 70 billion dollars to distribute a fancy way to burn natural gas just do it with out my tax dollars.
"THE ABOVE POST CONTAINS MISLEADING AND INACCURATE INFORMATION. PLEASE CONSIDER IT OPINION, NOT FACT". -someone who I offended and is unable to produce the facts in question.

smkettner
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:33 pm

Oilpan4 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:42 am
Everything everyone needs to know about hydrogen can be summed up with 2 numbers.
$16 per 1kg.
Inefficiency will always come at a high cost.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
RAV4 traded in for I-Pace Dec 2018

Oilpan4
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:16 am

Every part of making compressing and storing hydrogen is inefficient.
That's why it will take nearly free and unlimited energy to make it affordable.
"THE ABOVE POST CONTAINS MISLEADING AND INACCURATE INFORMATION. PLEASE CONSIDER IT OPINION, NOT FACT". -someone who I offended and is unable to produce the facts in question.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:36 pm

GCC:
DOE announces up to $64M to advance H2@Scale in new markets
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/0 ... scale.html

. . . This investment will support transformational research and development (R&D), innovative hydrogen concepts that will encourage market expansion and increase the scale of hydrogen production, storage, transport, and use.

Hydrogen and fuel cells represent an industry with the potential to enable resiliency, energy security, emission reductions, and economic growth across sectors. While the United States produces 10 million tons of hydrogen annually, a significant increase in hydrogen supply and demand will be required to fully realize hydrogen benefits across the economy. . . .

Topic areas include:

  • Electrolyzer Manufacturing R&D (up to $15M): Lowering the cost of hydrogen produced from megawatt- and gigawatt-scale electrolyzers by improving large-scale, high-volume electrolyzer manufacturing in the US.

    Advanced Carbon Fiber for Compressed Gas Storage Tanks (up to $15M): Reducing the cost of hydrogen and natural gas storage tanks by developing low-cost, high-strength carbon fiber and scaling up to industry-relevant scales.

    Fuel Cell R&D and Domestic Manufacturing for Medium and Heavy Duty Transportation (up to $10M): Advancing the development of domestically manufactured fuel cell components and stacks that meet the cost and performance needs of trucks and other emerging heavy duty applications.

    H2@Scale New Markets R&D – HySteel (up to $8M): Enabling the use of hydrogen in steel manufacturing applications, aligned with FCTO and H2@Scale priorities for fostering new markets for hydrogen.

    H2@Scale New Markets Demonstrations in Maritime and Data Centers (up to $14M): Developing first-of-a-kind demonstrations to jumpstart emerging new market opportunities for hydrogen in maritime and data center applications.

    Training and Workforce Development (up to $2M): Creating cohesive, strategic, and well-coordinated regional efforts to develop the skills necessary to support the growing hydrogen and fuel cell industry.
Concept papers are due 25 February 2020 and full applications are due 20 April 2020.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:11 pm

IEVS:
BMW Hydrogen VP Says FCEVs Could Be As Cheap As ICE By 2025
https://insideevs.com/news/395403/bmw-v ... -ice-2025/

There’s currently a big price gap between fuel cell and internal combustion-engined vehicles. . . .

BMW seems to be on the side of those in favor of quicker fuel cell electric powertrain adoption, because it plans on launching a limited series FCEV version of the X5 SUV in 2022 - it was previewed by the i Hydrogen NEXT concept which was shown at the 2019 Frankfurt motor show. . . .

The company is working on its third generation fuel cells right now and the main goal is to get costs low enough for them to start selling an FCEV alongside other vehicles in its range (and not just as limited run offerings). Guldner suggested that BMW is close to bringing the cost down to a point where it will be comparable to its gasoline and diesel vehicles, but is not quite there yet.

He expects this to happen no earlier than 2025, or somewhere between 2025 and the end of the decade. There currently isn’t enough demand for the manufacturer to launch a full FCEV model, since it would still be too expensive to have a chance at success, but things may not stay like this for too long.

This is an interesting standpoint given that fellow German automaker Volkswagen announced it would be diverting most of the resources it had allocated for fuel cell development towards battery electric vehicles in the near future. Audi, which is part of the VW group, may still keep the fuel cell development flame lit, though. . . .

As with all forecasts, add salt to taste.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:08 pm

GCC:
Hiringa and Waitomo to partner to develop New Zealand’s first hydrogen refueling stations network
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/0 ... 03-nz.html

. . . Taranaki-based Hiringa Energy is the first company in New Zealand dedicated to the supply of green hydrogen (produced via electrolysis), providing solutions for industry, the public sector, and transport operators. Waikato-based Waitomo Group is New Zealand’s fastest-growing independent fuel retailer.

Together the two will work on the detailed engineering requirements and consenting for a network of hydrogen refueling sites, some of which will be on existing Waitomo Fuel Stops. Initial locations have been selected, with plans for a further 20 stations to be developed across both the North and South Island.
  • Heavy transport makes up only four percent of our vehicles, but they’re responsible for over 25 percent of our total vehicle emissions. Hydrogen is the key technology that will allow these fleets to stay on the road—a mass-market, clean energy solution that can have a real impact on reducing our transport emissions.

    —Hiringa Energy CEO and Co-Founder, Andrew Clennett. . . .
Development and consenting for the first hydrogen refueling sites will get under way this year. The two companies will work together to identify and scope further sites for development of the network in 2020. . . .

ABG:
Toyota tests maritime hydrogen fuel cell tech in Energy Observer catamaran
It uses hydrogen electrolyzed from seawater using wind and solar for energy autonomy
https://www.autoblog.com/2020/02/03/toy ... fuel-cell/

. . . Taking knowledge it has gained from and tech it has developed for the Mirai fuel cell vehicle, Toyota has now developed a fuel cell system for maritime applications. Its first delivery goes to the Energy Observer, a former racing catamaran that has been converted to run on a mix of renewable energies for a new mission: to show the world that sea voyages can be greener while creating economic opportunity.

As a supplement to wind and solar, hydrogen power seems like a natural fit for maritime transport. After all, there’s no shortage of the atom at sea, and if a vessel can isolate its own hydrogen from seawater — as the Energy Observer is able to through electrolysis — it’s essentially free energy. The Energy Observer uses solar cells and wind turbines as part of its energy mix to provide propulsion and to power the electrolyzer.

Of course, with wind and solar available, hydrogen isn't the most efficient energy source. The Energy Observer uses an energy management system to optimize efficiency. When able, the boat uses solar and wind energy to directly power the propulsion. For short interruptions such as cloudy weather, energy stored in the lithium-ion batteries takes over, while the hydrogen fuel cell system powers the boat at night and during other extended interruptions.

As for Toyota’s role, it adapted the Mirai’s fuel cell system into a more compact module especially for this sort of application. Toyota then worked with the Energy Observer team to install it in the boat and test it at dock. Now, the system undergoes full-power testing at sea before the Energy Observer continues on its official six-year mission to visit 101 ports in 50 countries to spread the word about clean energy. So far, the boat has logged three years, 18,000 nautical miles, 25 countries and 48 ports. . . .

There's a photo.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oilpan4
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:13 pm

None of this really matters to the United states until something gets done about hydrogen costing $16 per Kg and it coming from natural gas.
"THE ABOVE POST CONTAINS MISLEADING AND INACCURATE INFORMATION. PLEASE CONSIDER IT OPINION, NOT FACT". -someone who I offended and is unable to produce the facts in question.

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:11 pm

See numerous earlier posts reporting R&D and economy of scale effects to accomplish both.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

smkettner
Posts: 7501
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:11 pm

Oilpan4 wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:13 pm
None of this really matters to the United states until something gets done about hydrogen costing $16 per Kg and it coming from natural gas.
I assume hydrogen from solar would be even more costly.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
RAV4 traded in for I-Pace Dec 2018

Oilpan4
Posts: 1771
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:10 am

Yeah making solar hydrogen from solar power is a huge waste. I don't think anyone has achieved greater than 50% efficiency in a continuous large sale industrial operation.
"THE ABOVE POST CONTAINS MISLEADING AND INACCURATE INFORMATION. PLEASE CONSIDER IT OPINION, NOT FACT". -someone who I offended and is unable to produce the facts in question.

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