salyavin
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:23 am

Also needing to build out a new fuel network with trucks carting around the fuel. I like charging at home off sunlight as well.

It may have a place I just doubt it is with passenger cars. For example I think hydrogen fuel cells may weigh less for the range so a BEP (battery electric plane) has a shorter range. may be important for long haul cargo maybe. shipping maybe (how about sails/wind to assist?)

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:41 pm

WetEV wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:32 am
https://www.scania.com/group/en/home/ne ... icles.html#
Scania has invested in hydrogen technologies and is currently the only heavy-duty vehicle manufacturer with vehicles in operations with customers. The engineers have gained valuable insights from these early tests and efforts will continue. However, going forward the use of hydrogen for such applications will be limited since three times as much renewable electricity is needed to power a hydrogen truck compared to a battery electric truck. A great deal of energy is namely lost in the production, distribution, and conversion back to electricity.

Repair and maintenance also need to be considered. The cost for a hydrogen vehicle will be higher than for a battery electric vehicle as its systems are more complex, such as an extensive air- and cooling system. Furthermore, hydrogen is a volatile gas which requires more maintenance to ensure safety.
Higher energy cost, higher repair cost and higher maintenance cost.
Only if you ignore a BEVs' largest O&M cost, replacing the pack one or more times during the vehicle's life. Of course, Scania is welcome to spend their money however they choose.

Meanwhile, via Asia Times:
Hydrogen fuels a revolution in Chinese trucking

Analysts say fuel cell electric vehicles are the leading alternatives to internal combustion engine
https://asiatimes.com/2021/03/hydrogen- ... -trucking/

. . . But while hydrogen fuel cells are just beginning to provide serious competition to battery powered vehicles in personal transportation, they are making a large impact in the heavier vehicle commercial transportation space where large loads have to be carried over long distances.

That’s where hydrogen has the advantage.

And that’s where China, just getting to be competitive with the likes of Tesla in snazzy passenger cars, is poised to seize the lead with hydrogen-powered trucks.

The hydrogen fuel cell is a rare example of a long-established technology turning into a game-changing disrupter. It has powered spacecraft and submarines for decades but made little headway in ground transportation because governments balked at the cost of building fueling infrastructure, and because the cost of producing the raw materials was prohibitive.

That’s changing in a big way, mainly because China has made hydrogen-powered ground transport one of the top priorities of its $560 billion a year technology investment budget.

Europe and Japan – Germany has declared 2021 the year of hydrogen technology – are running only slightly behind China. For the next decade or so, battery-powered passenger vehicles will dominate the market for low-carbon substitutes for the internal combustion engine. But batteries can’t power long-range freight transportation by truck and rail, and China is making a decisive commitment to hydrogen. . . .

In a March 2021 report entitled “China’s gateway to a hydrogen future,” J.P. Morgan research analysts Han Fu and Stephen Tsui write, “Green hydrogen, a clean form of energy, clearly holds potential to play a critical role in China’s 2060 carbon neutrality ambitions.

“Fuel Cell EVs appear to be emerging as an early use case. This is an opportunity for the China hydrogen ecosystem to develop approaches to overcome technical and economic challenges, necessary for more widespread future applications. Hydrogen plays have been in market focus, and valuations are lofty.”

“The global automotive fuel cell market size was USD1.07 billion in 2020…this market exhibited a stellar growth of 44% in 2020,” according to a Fortune Business Insights study, and “is projected to grow from USD $1.73 billion in 2021 to UD $34.63 billion in 2028 at a stellar compound adjusted growth rate of 53.5% in the 2021-2028 period.”

The Fortune report adds that fuel cell electric vehicles are “the leading alternatives to the widely used internal combustion engine automobiles.” The lion’s share of the growth, Fortune adds, will be in the Asia-Pacific region.

Already the largest market for Plug-in Energy Vehicles (PEV’s) with 3 million on the road, China projects a fleet of 50,000 fuel-cell vehicles (FCV’s) by 2025 and 1 million by 2030, from only 6,000 on the road in 2019.

Beijing listed hydrogen as an energy source in a public law for the first time in its 2020 Energy Law of the People’s Republic of China, and established subsidies for FCV’s through four government departments, with an emphasis on freight and urban mass transit.

China is ready to finance the refueling infrastructure required to make hydrogen-based transport economically viable. And it has a large supply of hydrogen, now produced as a waste byproduct by its chemical industry.

According to government directives issued in September 2020, central government subsidies for FCV’s could reach RMB 17 billion, depending on how quickly Chinese cities meet their targets for FCV deployment. Local governments are likely to match the central government support, bringing the total government spend to RMB 34 billion, supporting between 40,000 and 60,000 new vehicles between 2020 and 2023.

China’s commitment to fuel-cell vehicles prompted a scramble by Europe and Japan to put forward their own programs.

Established Chinese automakers as entrepreneurs are launching new ventures to meet the enormous demand for FCV’s projected by the government. SAIC, a state-owned automaker, plans to produce 10,000 FCV’s a year by 2025. More ambitious is the alliance between startup Ares Motors and two established Chinese vehicle manufacturers, Fujian-based Wisdom Motors and Chery Holdings of Anhui Province.

Large international automakers are gearing up for the Chinese market, both as OEM’s and as components manufacturers. Toyota set up a joint venture with FAW group in 2019 which will begin to deliver fuel-cell systems for trucks and buses in China in 2022.

China had only 80 hydrogen refueling stations in 2020, a fraction of what it will need to reach its near- and medium-term goals.

The supply chain for FCV components, moreover, is in an early stage of development. The September government directives focused on building infrastructure (mainly refueling stations) as well as developing a robust supply chain. . . .

J.P. Morgan analysts explained in their March 2021 report, “With the carbon-neutrality target now in place, we are optimistic that hydrogen can replicate the success of wind/solar power. The H2 addressable market could grow >30x by 2050, to Rmb12tn, and we estimate green hydrogen’s being commercially competitive by 2030. . . .

In Europe, Volkswagen-owned Scania, one of Europe’s largest truck producers, declared last year that fuel-cell trucks will be too inefficient and costly to compete with the battery-powered alternative. Scania is betting that improvements in battery technology will allow battery-powered trucks to carry a standard 40-ton load for 4.5 hours — far more than today’s batteries can manage.

To travel several hundred miles today, an eighteen-wheeler would have to carry nothing but batteries to power the engine.

In contrast to Scania’s skepticism, Volvo and Daimler have joined forces with Shell to make hydrogen the future commercial standard for trucking in Europe.

Dubbed “H2Accelerate,” the Shell-led program envisions a public-private partnership to create economies of scale for freight FCV’s, with a network of hydrogen fueling stations built out across Europe by the second half of the 2020s. A trade association, Hydrogen Europe, predicted that Europe would have 10,000 hydrogen trucks in operation by 2025 and 100,000 by 2030. . . .

A former top General Motors engineer, Ian Hanna, believes in pursuing hydrogen and battery technology in tandem. A former head of GM’s systems safety operations in China, Hanna now heads Ares Motors, an ambitious OEM startup. . . .

“And it’s with our dual approach. We’re not only a hydrogen fuel cell company. We’re also a battery electric vehicle [BEV} company. That dual propulsion strategy allows us to meet customer needs this year.

“The 2021 volumes will primarily be through the BEV’s. The infrastructure is well established and the technologies of course are mature, so the customer’s comfortable with it. And then long-term we’ll be able to offer our customers both the hydrogen fuel cell vehicles and our BEV vehicles, depending upon whatever is the best fit for their use.”

Ares’ flagship product is a heavy truck with a choice of electric battery power or hydrogen fuel cells. The hydrogen model offers a 1,000-kilometer cruising range with a standard 43-ton load, compared with 400 kilometers for the battery-electric vehicle version.

“For a lot of the longer-range customers,” Hanna added, “the BEV truck may not make sense, so we’ll be able to offer them both of those solutions. I think our timing will be right; we will have the customer relationships, as well as the technology to differentiate our company. . . .

Perhaps Ares’ most important advantage is to be located in China. Cost efficiency is the key to the future of hydrogen-powered transport, and the cost of hydrogen itself is the most important variable.

China now produces a third of the world’s hydrogen, or 20 million metric tons a year, or enough to cover a tenth of the country’s total energy needs. At an estimated fuel consumption of 7.5 kilograms of hydrogen for every 100 miles of road haulage, according to Fuelcelslworks.com, China’s present output potentially could power a truck fleet over 267 billion miles a year of transport – more than enough to meet the country’s present annual 6 billion ton-miles of road transportation.

The cost of hydrogen production is falling, from $6 per kilogram in 2015 to $2 per kilogram in 2025, according to a US Department of Energy study.

China led the world in deployment of cost-efficient solar energy, and many analysts expect China to do the same with hydrogen. A study by Chinese scientists argues that a $2/kg hydrogen price can be achieved quickly through electrolysis of water, which produces the purest hydrogen with the lowest overall environmental impact.

According to the Hydrogen Council, freight and bus transportation with FCVs becomes economically viable at a hydrogen price of $3/kg, and passenger car FCVs become viable at $2/kg.. . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:55 pm

Both GCC:
California Energy Commission awards Sierra Northern Railway team nearly $4M to demonstrate hydrogen switching locomotive; H2RAM
https://www.greencarcongress.com/page/2/

The California Energy Commission has awarded GTI and Sierra Northern Railway nearly $4,000,000 to fund the design, integration, and demonstration of a hydrogen fuel cell switching locomotive to support the Hydrogen Fuel Cell Demonstrations in Rail and Marine Applications at Ports (H2RAM) initiative. . . .

technology will establish a platform for widespread commercialization in the immediate future. Because locomotives are federally regulated, incentivizing railroads to implement new environmental technologies is challenging. The potential California market for new hydrogen locomotives includes more than 260 switcher locomotives and up to 500 intrastate locomotives.

Short-line and switching locomotives account for a significant share of the total locomotive energy use within the state as they carry a significant portion of freight in California and operate on the first and last miles of the national freight network. This makes short-line operations an excellent testbed for the demonstration of zero-emission technologies.

Most switcher locomotives in California use an average of 50,000 gallons per year per switcher potentially leading to a reduction of more than 12 million gallons of diesel per year. This is approximately equivalent to the same amount of fuel used each year by 20,000 light-duty vehicles.

Sierra Northern Railway is the freight
division of privately-owned, Sierra Railroad Company. Sierra Railroad Company is also the principal owner of Sierra Energy Corporation, which has developed a proprietary waste-to-clean-hydrogen technology: FastOx gasification.

Sierra Northern Railway currently operates approximately 75 miles of track in Northern California, through the heart of a number of California’s prime industrial areas, serving a wide variety of customers, and interchanging with both the Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway and the Union Pacific Railroad.

Haldor Topsoe and Nel ASA to offer end-to-end green ammonia and eMethanol solutions
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... oenel.html

. . . Green ammonia (produced from renewable energy, water and air) and eMethanol (produced from feedstocks obtained by utilization of waste streams, electrolysis hydrogen, and CO2 capture) are both considered promising low-carbon transportation fuels and energy carriers. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:06 am

Running on Empty: There's a Lot to Like About Hydrogen, If You Can Find It
Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, but in California it can be maddeningly hard to find when you need it to fuel vehicles like the Toyota Mirai.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a ... -shortage/

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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:31 pm

Catching up with a busy week plus of missed articles, so I'll only show the title and URL. All GCC:
Ørsted proposes to develop one of the world’s largest renewable hydrogen plants: SeaH2Land
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... rsted.html

Chart Industries invests $25M for 5% stake in Transform Materials; strategic commercial hydrogen MOU
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... chart.html

New Fraunhofer membrane technology enables co-transport of hydrogen and natural gas
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... ofer1.html

New waste-to-hydrogen plant in Tokyo to convert wastewater sludge into H2 for vehicles and power generation
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... -jbec.html

Great Wall Motors sets out hydrogen energy strategy
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... 6-gwm.html

Plug Power, Chart Industries and Baker Hughes to become cornerstone investors in FiveT Hydrogen Fund; clean hydrogen at scale
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... fivet.html

Toyota launches hydrogen production and refueling facility in Australia
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... oyota.html

Loop Energy and BayoTech in joint market development agreement to accelerate deployment of hydrogen vehicles and fueling infrastructure
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... -loop.html

Toyota Motor Europe invests in EODev to expand hydrogen solutions
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... eodev.html

BloombergNEF forecasts green hydrogen should be cheaper than natural gas by 2050 in some markets; falling costs of solar PV key
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... -bnef.html
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:43 pm

It's been a very busy month for H2/FCEV projects, so here's some more, all GCC:
Doosan Fuel Cell providing fuel cells for Korea-China Smart Farm Village in Pocheon
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... oosan.html

Hydro exploring hydrogen opportunities for internal demand and external market

Toyota Motor Europe to supply fuel cell modules for train project as member of FCH2RAIL consortium
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... 8-tme.html

MAN Energy launches industry consortium to develop medium-speed, ammonia-fueled engine
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... 9-man.html

Everfuel signs MOU for hydrogen supply to new zero-emission ship concept
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... rfuel.html

MHO-Co to head consortium to develop green solutions for shipping; fuel cells and batteries
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... -mhpo.html

Canada launches hydrogen strategy steering committee
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... anada.html

Starfire Energy closes major funding round; green ammonia and hydrogen solutions
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... rfire.html

Iron ore leader Fortescue pushing green hydrogen, ammonia and electricity projects
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... 0-fmg.html

Syzygy Plasmonics raises $23M Series B to electrify chemical manufacturing; photocatalytic reactor for hydrogen production
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... yzygy.html


Whew!
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:48 pm

IEVS:
Leading Hydrogen Fuel Cell Exec Leaves Nikola
https://insideevs-com.cdn.ampproject.or ... resigns%2F
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:07 am

All GCC:
Bosch and Qingling Motors cooperate on fuel cells; new JV in China
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... bosch.html

. . . According to the Energy Saving and New Energy Vehicle Technology Roadmap 2.0 by the China Society of Automotive Engineers (China-SAE), more than one million vehicles with fuel cell drive systems could be registered in China by 2030. The joint venture aims to provide all Chinese vehicle manufacturers with fuel cell systems.

The components required for this, such as the fuel cell stack, air compressor with power electronics, and control unit with sensors, come from Bosch, mainly from the plant in Wuxi. Small-scale production will start there this year. Also in 2021, a test fleet of 70 Qingling trucks equipped with Bosch’s Fuel Cell Power Module will hit the road. The market launch of the fuel cell system is planned for 2022/2023. . . .

Nikola, IVECO, OGE to collaborate on hydrogen pipeline network in Europe; support for FCEV fueling locations
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... ikola.html


Plug Power invited to submit Part II Application for proposed $520M DOE loan guarantee for green hydrogen production network
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... power.html

. . . Upon receiving approval from the DOE Title XVII Loan Guarantee Program, Plug Power will utilize its electrolyzer, liquefaction and distribution technologies to deploy the first resilient network of zero-carbon hydrogen production facilities across the United States. The facilities will have a combined liquid hydrogen generation capacity of approximately 180 tons per day.

Each plant will be co-located with solar photovoltaic, wind, and/or hydro-electric plants that will utilize zero-carbon renewable electricity. Plug Power is in the process of negotiating power purchase agreements with renewable energy suppliers. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:42 am

A recent article explaining better the current China/Hydrogen situation - coal gasification (rated dirty) is a major source of hydrogen. All H2 sources will require substantial energy/capital to clean/compress to dense phase for "liquid" transport. Thermodynamically questionable with realistic lifecycle of solar/wind?? Would sure like to see a realistic lifecycle analysis, especially with offshore wind.
https://green-bri.org/hydrogen-chinas-p ... nitiative/
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GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:09 pm

^^^ Yup, China needs to clean up its grid. This is just as much of an issue for PEVs there, as the majority of their electricity (64% in 2018, down from 80% in 2007) still comes from coal. That's why they're building PV/wind/nukes at a frantic pace.

You might want to read the IRENA report I posted a link to in December, about methods of cost reduction in electrolysis, which is the 2nd biggest cost in Green H2 after electricity. It has some cost breakdowns. You can download it here: https://www.irena.org/publications/2020 ... -reduction
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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