One more winter range post- 33*, 80% to 0 bars: 32.8 miles

Bit of a surprising day yesterday... I had seen some serious drops as it got colder, but I was still a little shocked with yesterday's performance...

I only had it chanrged to 80% because I didn't think there was going to be any chance of an issue. The temp was 33 when I got up, and it never got higher than 40 at any point (it was 36 when I went to lunch, 38 on the way home, according to the dash) - and wet; it rained constantly yesterday (still is for that matter). I started the morning by turning on the preheat with it on the charger. Ended up preheating for about 15 minutes... OOPS. That was a huge mistake... When I got to the car, I couldn't even see into it for the fog. Yet again I'm reminded how annoying it is that there's no way to pre-heat/defog. So I got in the car, turned on the defogger and waited.... and realized why Nissan chose not to do that (or at least, my guess of why). Even with it on the charger, it was dropping power. At 33*, with temp set to 65*, defogger on and fan high, it was pulling over 4.5kw. It was so severely fogged that it took another 10 minutes of defogger to clear up, and by then I was down to 9 bars already!! I can only assume it must've been slowly draining even when it was running just heater...

So I started off short already, but like I said, with a 33 mile commute I still expected PLENTY of room, right? So being a little late to work (from having to spend an extra 10 minutes in the carport waiting for defog), I took the interstate on the way in. 57mph, 8 miles of interstate, the rest is still normal roads with a max speed limit of 45. Heater set to 65, fan low, defog only on when absolutely necessary.

I don't remember exactly what the display showed when I got to work, but it was lower than I expected, enough lower that I was a bit worried- so when I went to lunch (no interstate, 40mph max), I took it very easy and used no climate control other than defog when absolutely needed (with temp all the way down).

On the way home, I took city roads instead of the interstate - 40mph limit for that portion of the trip, so other than the 8 miles of morning interstate where I drove 57, at no point was I on a road with >45mph limit (and I didn't break the limits).

So I never really had to worry about making it home - I got low battery warning about 5 miles from home (showing 9 miles left), and just before I pulled in the driveway the last bar disappeared and the guessometer changed from 4 to --. Didn't turtle yet.


I know there's a lot of worst case scenarios here, but I'm still just a bit shocked that it came out this bad... 8 miles of 57mph, the rest under 45, climate control used for 30 minutes at 70*, the rest of the day EXCLUSIVELY for defogging? 33 miles with 4 miles left on 80% (~37 total) would imply a full-charge range of well under 50 miles...

I mean, I expect the range to drop every time it gets colder..... But it seems like every time it does, that expectation is shattered by how much.

I've changed all my timers to 100% so I don't have to worry about making it home anymore, and maybe I'll even get to use the heater. At least there are extremely few days colder than this here. Still, we might see a handfull of days a year in the 20s... I just worry that, as sharp as these drops have been each time the temp dropped, even 100% isn't going to get me 40 miles on those days. Guess I can skip meeting my wife for lunch and/or make other arrangements to pick up my son on extremely cold days.


Incidentally, the preheat thing is starting to seem like a lose-lose thing. I can skip it and even if I decide not to turn on climate control, still suck a ton of juice every time I turn on the defog, or I can turn it on and have to suck a ton of juice to get it defogged once I'm ready to go. Anybody else handled prewarming in humid, cold weather? How did you deal with it?

defiancecp said:

I can only assume it must've been slowly draining even when it was running just heater...

Click to expand...

Where you on L1 or L2(120V or 240V)? L1 can not give you 4.5kW, L2 will get you closer but not there, so yes you were draining the battery.

defiancecp said:

Anybody else handled prewarming in humid, cold weather? How did you deal with it?

Click to expand...

I am parked in the garage, I never had to set the car temperature over 63 while driving. I only had to use defrog intermitently about 30 seconds every 3-5 minutes.

If you are parked outside then install battery heaters to keep the battery warm overnight. My battery temperature gauge only moved from 5 to 6 bars during a DC charge during the summer. Other than that 5 bars for the last 6 months, I am wondering if it is working.

Sounds low. I recently drove 37.5 miles in 25F weather, the heater on continously (set at 68F), 2000 ft. elevation gain, 2 inches of unplowed snow on the ground and some pretty steep hills that together with the snow (and the gravel road underneath) gave the traction control a pretty good workout. Also the high beams were on pretty much the whole time and there were no pre-heating done.

Battery was at 79.6% at the start of the trip and 3.2% at the end (read by SOC meter). This corresponds to a 50 mile range from 100% to 0% in quite bad conditions.

On level and clear ground (tarmac) in the same temperatures, doing 50mph with the heater on, I usually get a range of about 75-80miles.

camasleaf said:

defiancecp said:

I can only assume it must've been slowly draining even when it was running just heater...

Click to expand...

Where you on L1 or L2(120V or 240V)? L1 can not give you 4.5kW, L2 will get you closer but not there, so yes you were draining the battery.

Click to expand...

Yep, I've seen the same. I usually pre-heat about 15 minutes. That will lower my gids from 281 to 273 or so. My L2 EVSE can deliver 20A but the car won't draw over 16A anyway. This is the one reason I'd ever want a 6.6kW charger....

The SOC-meter usually reports a draw of about 800W from the battery during pre-heating.

defiancecp said:

Incidentally, the preheat thing is starting to seem like a lose-lose thing. I can skip it and even if I decide not to turn on climate control, still suck a ton of juice every time I turn on the defog, or I can turn it on and have to suck a ton of juice to get it defogged once I'm ready to go. Anybody else handled prewarming in humid, cold weather? How did you deal with it?

Click to expand...

Don't use defog - see my thread on how to defog without using the heater.

Defog, as you say takes up a lot of energy. But if you use fan + defog mode (foot+defog), you can defog with 1.5 kWh. That will also keep the cabin reasonably warm. Infact I switch between this defog mode & foot+face mode when I want heat.

Yeah, it's L2. I'm hoping the real problem is that I just really cut myself short with the morning heating, since it basically ran heavy heat for 25 minutes (part of the time with a slow drain, part with a more significant drain).

I'd always made the assumption that it was charge-neutral or even slightly positive charge when preheating. Now I know better...

evnow I'll find the post you're referencing; I have no idea what you mean right now

*edit* - Ok, I found the post... not really clear on why diverting the heat to the feet + defog using the mode switch would improve power consumption in comparison to just straing defog, but I'm certainly willing to try.

defiancecp said:

One more winter range post- 33*, 80% to 0 bars: 32.8 miles

Click to expand...

that is the miles I did this morning @ 18F and mostly highway on 40%, forget about heat, wear jacket and hat

Wow, that must have been disconcerting.

Our temperatures have been about 10° F colder than yours, yet we haven't seen our range drop that dramatically.

My guess is that climate control was a major factor in your reduced range. Admittedly, our climate is dryer than yours, and as we are typically dressed in winter clothing when we get in the car, we don't need to run the climate control all that much. Still, I would suggest the following:

1. When preheating the car, make sure that you are using a climate control timer to do so. Even though your car was plugged in during morning preheating, if you weren't using the climate control timer or "charging", then I believe you were actually drawing current from the battery and not from the EVSE. You'll want to make sure to set the climate control timer for a time right before your departure, and leave the car plugged in and turned off.

2. When defogging a cold car, you are actually running the heater, even if that isn't actually your intention. (This has been a subject of criticism in other threads.) To minimize the use of the heater, set the temperature at 60°. You might also want to use recirculation mode rather than drawing outside, colder, more humid air.

Driving a battery-powered car has many advantages, but it's so dang efficient that it doesn't generate waste heat for cabin use. Using an ethanol-fueled heater for the cabin, as the Swedes are doing in Volvo EVs, has merits in some climates. (For our purposes high up in the SoCal mountains, the car is fine as is, though.)

defiancecp said:

Yeah, it's L2. I'm hoping the real problem is that I just really cut myself short with the morning heating, since it basically ran heavy heat for 25 minutes (part of the time with a slow drain, part with a more significant drain).

I'd always made the assumption that it was charge-neutral or even slightly positive charge when preheating. Now I know better...

evnow I'll find the post you're referencing; I have no idea what you mean right now

*edit* - Ok, I found the post... not really clear on why diverting the heat to the feet + defog using the mode switch would improve power consumption in comparison to just straing defog, but I'm certainly willing to try.

Click to expand...

Try to time your charging to it is still running or ending when you leave, your pack will be warmer when you go to leave.

I just thought I'd mention. I too was surprised yesterday when I used my iPhone to turn on the heater while my car was in the garage and plugged in. I have done this several times and it works great. But when I went into the garage 10 minutes later, my windows were all fogged up. I've never seen foggy windows on a car parked inside of a closed garage before. It took me by surprise. Of course it was raining that day so the humidity was very high.

To make matters worse, my wife had been driving the car the evening before and forgot to plug it in. She has a bad habit of driving my car and forgetting to plug it in. So not only was the battery already drained some, but it turns out I ran the pre-heat on battery power too. So I had to leave for work yesterday morning with like 60 miles range. Not that this was a problem, I was only planning to drive about 14 miles yesterday for the entire day. When I got home I had 50 miles range left. I had been running the heater and sometimes the defogger too. I know 50 miles is still a lot of range, but that is a record low when it comes to my daily driving. I've never returned home with such a low number. Usually I return home with 80 to 90 miles of range remaining.

Curious to know how many battery temp bars were showing during the day?

I tried 80% charge on a cold rainy day and only achieved about 40 miles with 5 miles remaining and climate primarily off. However, when I charged to 100%, I traveled 63 miles with 15 miles remaining. Unless you have very short commute, it doesn't seem possible to charge to 80% during 30 degrees and below winter months.

adric22 said:

Usually I return home with 80 to 90 miles of range remaining.

Click to expand...

Have you been "topping off" every day ? On days I don't need full battery, I've been charging to 80%. But this winter I've been charging to 100%.

In cold weather, charging to 100% does have the benefit of warming the battery pack and thus increasing its capacity. Charging to 80%, there seems to be much less warming.

Still, I typically only charge to about 65% or 70%, and have no trouble at all with 30+ mile round trips in the mountains in the cold.

On the question about the temp meter. so far I've never seen it hit 3 bars; it was showing 4 all day yesterday.

As a note, over lunch today I tried the heater on feet/windshield setting, and you're dead right - defog showed 4.5kw, foot+windshield showed just over 1.5... How the heck does that work??

adric22 said:

I just thought I'd mention. I too was surprised yesterday when I used my iPhone to turn on the heater while my car was in the garage and plugged in. I have done this several times and it works great. But when I went into the garage 10 minutes later, my windows were all fogged up. I've never seen foggy windows on a car parked inside of a closed garage before. It took me by surprise. Of course it was raining that day so the humidity was very high.

To make matters worse, my wife had been driving the car the evening before and forgot to plug it in. She has a bad habit of driving my car and forgetting to plug it in. So not only was the battery already drained some, but it turns out I ran the pre-heat on battery power too. So I had to leave for work yesterday morning with like 60 miles range. Not that this was a problem, I was only planning to drive about 14 miles yesterday for the entire day. When I got home I had 50 miles range left. I had been running the heater and sometimes the defogger too. I know 50 miles is still a lot of range, but that is a record low when it comes to my daily driving. I've never returned home with such a low number. Usually I return home with 80 to 90 miles of range remaining.

Click to expand...

Have you turned on the plug in reminder emails? I forgot to plug in my Leaf in first week or two that I had it. I turned the reminder and it helps a lot.

I got the same foggy window scenario you got yesterday. I preheated in the garage. The windows were very fogged up. I also had my lowest mile / kWHr. I traveled about 34 miles with an 80% charged and got home with 2 bars remaining.

If you are having trouble with fogging during prewarming, try drying the car out... moisture collects in the car from our breathing. I had a lot of fogging initially this winter then I heated up the car a few times and after each preheat opened all the doors and let the moisture out. I never use recirculate, that traps moisture. since then, no more fogging during preheat and much easier time dealing with fog while driving. also, I can vouch for evnow's foot/defog option for using no heat, it works really well even in this wet seattle/shoreline environment with the exception of stop and go driving. I've regained so much range that the guesometer showed 101 miles at 80%, just like in the summer. I'm considering a trip down to Olympia soon, about 75 miles of highway... i'll report back on how that worked, or didn't. this climate control issue needs serious attention by Nissan, ASAP... the natives are getting restless!!!!

defiancecp said:

.... Even with it on the charger, it was dropping power. At 33*, with temp set to 65*, defogger on and fan high, it was pulling over 4.5kw. It was so severely fogged that it took another 10 minutes of defogger to clear up, and by then I was down to 9 bars already!! I can only assume it must've been slowly draining even when it was running just heater...

Click to expand...

Do you have "Charging" or "Climate Control" set as the priority? I have a "Charging" priority and everytime I pre-heat the car I end up with a battery that is 85-90% charged when I drive away even though I charge to 80% the night before. I do park it in an unheated garage, which keeps the car in the 40-50 degree temp range most of the time.

defiancecp

do you have a batter warmer installed ??? I think that would make a huge difference.

The foot / defog cycle talked about above is not really a defog cycle. The true defog ... windshield only, runs the A/C to dehumidify the air, then re-heat it so hot dry air blows on the windshield. The foot / defog suggested saves energy, or at least appears to save energy, but it does not de-humidify with the A/C, so it may need to be run for a lot longer.

Openning the car to exhcange the air before driving, or even for the first few minutes, might be a big help. Using the recycle air
button is the worst possible thing to do.

Yesterday it started rain/snow on my way home. I recharged overnight and set the heater to come on at 7:30 this morning.
When I got up the windows were covered with snow. An hour later the snow had melted and slid off. The inside was 75 degrees and the windshield was warm and perfectly clear.

This is my experience from a grand total of 1 day with snow, but it worked great. Drove 30 milese to work and still had enough juice to get home according to the guessometer. But I plugged in anyway. The 220 Volt charger is NOT an option anywhere north of the Mason/Dixon line.

I got the car before them newfangled bat'ry warmers! Didn't figure it would be worth the wait in Arkansas. With my experience now I'd say there are very few places (ie florida, socal) where the battery warmer would not be well worth it. Hindsight's 20/20 and all that

What's this priority you're mentioning? I thought I'd explored all the settings pretty thoroughly, but I've not heard of that one.


Hm... if the foot/windshield cycle doesn't turn on the A/C, I'm betting it will not function as a defogger when most needed... It worked fine on my 10 minute drive at lunch, but in the extreme humidity/cold like yesterday morning, seems like the only difference between that and the heater that fogged every window in the car would be that it's pointed a little different. I know in my old buick I had an a/c line bust one fall - didn't realize back then how a defogger worked, and I was broke at the time, so I figured I'd fix it the next summer - but the first cold/wet day we had that winter, I learned the error of that perspective. Heat just won't cut it as a defogger around here. Still, I'll keep trying it until I've confirmed it won't work...