coleafrado
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:58 pm
Delivery Date: 17 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 17123

Re: 24 kWh Battery replacement cost back down to $5500

Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:36 am

SalisburySam wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:07 am
That, plus the $40k I paid originally, makes my 2012 a $46k cost item. For the 13,500 miles I’ve driven it in the last 8 years, that’s about $3.41/mi not including electricity, registration, annual taxes, maintenance, and insurance. Cab fare would have been much less. Worse, after the battery replacement I’d have a vehicle that is likely worth about $3k or less. Worse yet, my TCU failed earlier this year, a $1200 ticket to replace. So now, no connectivity, no pre-heating or pre-cooling, etc., etc.
Well, that's the (unfortunately high) price of being an early adopter. A few things in your case are really hard to believe - that you paid $40k, that you drove it <15k miles in the past decade (US average is 15k), and that your battery is in such bad shape after such little mileage.

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SalisburySam
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Posts: 364
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:01 am
Delivery Date: 24 Feb 2012
Leaf Number: 018156
Location: Salisbury, NC

Re: 24 kWh Battery replacement cost back down to $5500

Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:23 am

coleafrado wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:36 am
SalisburySam wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:07 am
That, plus the $40k I paid originally, makes my 2012 a $46k cost item. For the 13,500 miles I’ve driven it in the last 8 years, that’s about $3.41/mi not including electricity, registration, annual taxes, maintenance, and insurance. Cab fare would have been much less. Worse, after the battery replacement I’d have a vehicle that is likely worth about $3k or less. Worse yet, my TCU failed earlier this year, a $1200 ticket to replace. So now, no connectivity, no pre-heating or pre-cooling, etc., etc.
Well, that's the (unfortunately high) price of being an early adopter. A few things in your case are really hard to believe - that you paid $40k, that you drove it <15k miles in the past decade (US average is 15k), and that your battery is in such bad shape after such little mileage.
Believe what you want, all is true. LEAF was never my commute vehicle, just an errand-mobile around town. After retirement, used even less. Battery loss was due to time, not mileage, as many other threads will attest to. As to the $40k, that's what an SL cost new in late 2011/early 2012. With the hype at the time, no dealer was giving any discounts and many added a dealer mark-up. My dealer charged sticker. And yes, I'm well aware of early adopter pricing and made that decision with eyes open. My point was to say that additional investments into this vehicle are not warranted in my opinion.
Nissan 2012 LEAF SL, 13,500 miles, 9 bars, 30-mile max range

Tesla Model 3: Long Range Rear Wheel Drive | Extended AutoPilot | Full Self-Driving
Delivered: July, 2018 | 13,500 miles
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DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14690
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Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 24 kWh Battery replacement cost back down to $5500

Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:34 am

SalisburySam wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:23 am
coleafrado wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:36 am
SalisburySam wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:07 am
That, plus the $40k I paid originally, makes my 2012 a $46k cost item. For the 13,500 miles I’ve driven it in the last 8 years, that’s about $3.41/mi not including electricity, registration, annual taxes, maintenance, and insurance. Cab fare would have been much less. Worse, after the battery replacement I’d have a vehicle that is likely worth about $3k or less. Worse yet, my TCU failed earlier this year, a $1200 ticket to replace. So now, no connectivity, no pre-heating or pre-cooling, etc., etc.
Well, that's the (unfortunately high) price of being an early adopter. A few things in your case are really hard to believe - that you paid $40k, that you drove it <15k miles in the past decade (US average is 15k), and that your battery is in such bad shape after such little mileage.
Believe what you want, all is true. LEAF was never my commute vehicle, just an errand-mobile around town. After retirement, used even less. Battery loss was due to time, not mileage, as many other threads will attest to. As to the $40k, that's what an SL cost new in late 2011/early 2012. With the hype at the time, no dealer was giving any discounts and many added a dealer mark-up. My dealer charged sticker. And yes, I'm well aware of early adopter pricing and made that decision with eyes open. My point was to say that additional investments into this vehicle are not warranted in my opinion.
so you didn't file taxes that year either?
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 7059.6 mi, 95.35% SOH
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davewill
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Re: 24 kWh Battery replacement cost back down to $5500

Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:49 am

SalisburySam wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:07 am
... If I were to opt for the battery replacement, I’d be adding, say, $6k to the capital cost of the vehicle. That, plus the $40k I paid originally, makes my 2012 a $46k cost item. For the 13,500 miles I’ve driven it in the last 8 years, that’s about $3.41/mi not including electricity, registration, annual taxes, maintenance, and insurance. Cab fare would have been much less. Worse, after the battery replacement I’d have a vehicle that is likely worth about $3k or less. Worse yet, my TCU failed earlier this year, a $1200 ticket to replace. So now, no connectivity, no pre-heating or pre-cooling, etc. ...
There's no point in counting the original price as that's a sunk cost and has no bearing on whether the battery replacement is worthwhile monitarily...not that I think you're necessarily wrong to pass on the new battery.

I would think it should be possible to find a used TCU from a salvage yard. You should just have to move your SIM over. Just make sure it's the updated one.
2014 Rav4 EV, Blizzard Pearl White
2011 LEAF SL w/QC, Blue Ocean, returned at end of lease

coleafrado
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:58 pm
Delivery Date: 17 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 17123

Re: 24 kWh Battery replacement cost back down to $5500

Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:30 pm

Sam - it's not that I don't literally believe you. It's that the story is unbelievable! How could Nissan fail to make you whole given how obviously defective your Leaf is? Your car (and battery) should be in mint condition, especially since your original battery was replaced, but it fails to meet even 50% of the original range specifications after you drove it less in 8 years than the average American drives in one.

Given that you own a Tesla, I don't see any reason to keep the Leaf. Just sell it for what the market says it's worth and move on. But with a new 24 or 30 kWh replacement battery, its private sale value couldn't possibly be lower than $6-8k.

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SalisburySam
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Posts: 364
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:01 am
Delivery Date: 24 Feb 2012
Leaf Number: 018156
Location: Salisbury, NC

Re: 24 kWh Battery replacement cost back down to $5500

Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:21 pm

coleafrado wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:30 pm
Sam - it's not that I don't literally believe you. It's that the story is unbelievable! How could Nissan fail to make you whole given how obviously defective your Leaf is? Your car (and battery) should be in mint condition, especially since your original battery was replaced, but it fails to meet even 50% of the original range specifications after you drove it less in 8 years than the average American drives in one.

Given that you own a Tesla, I don't see any reason to keep the Leaf. Just sell it for what the market says it's worth and move on. But with a new 24 or 30 kWh replacement battery, its private sale value couldn't possibly be lower than $6-8k.
Got it, and thanks for clarifying. I’ve been known to use hyperbole on occasion but I don’t lie, so you did get my hackles up a bit. But I’m much better now.

As for Nissan, ah well, that’s another issue altogether. My capacity has never gone below 9 bars, so I qualified for nothing. The actual range of the vehicle is not a part of their replacement algorithms. I still have my original battery because of this with no recourse after escalating the issue to NissanUSA; and I did so through my lawyer. After a lot of time and fees, that clearly was going nowhere so I cut my losses.

I’m pretty much at the same conclusion you suggest: dump the LEAF, reflect on lessons learned, enjoy the memories of my introduction to EVs, and grab a martini. You’ll likely find this chuckle-some, but I’m actually considering a 2020 LEAF SL+ as the replacement 2nd vehicle. I should probably go for a 2nd Tesla (Y?, CyberTrk?) but don’t want to spend quite that much. And the LEAF tax credit makes that a bit more attractive.
Nissan 2012 LEAF SL, 13,500 miles, 9 bars, 30-mile max range

Tesla Model 3: Long Range Rear Wheel Drive | Extended AutoPilot | Full Self-Driving
Delivered: July, 2018 | 13,500 miles
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DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 1494
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
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Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: 24 kWh Battery replacement cost back down to $5500

Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:44 pm

The 2020 Plus looks to have some incentives plus the federal rebate. It is pretty attractive deal.
2019 SV Plus Silver 6/19 purchase 7,000 Miles
2013 Leaf SV
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Max distance on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max distance on 19 Leaf: 242 Highway 4.5 miles/kWh

Lothsahn
Posts: 621
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: 24 kWh Battery replacement cost back down to $5500

Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:26 am

coleafrado wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:04 am
The newer pack chemistry (post 2012) degrades about half as fast per year as the original chemistry, but it still degrades, and after 7-8 years you're likely to have <60% capacity once more.
Unless you live in a hot climate, this is not true. This is a 5% degredation per year, which nearly all owners are not seeing. This graph shows that after 5 years, the 2015 model year is around 80% SOC average. Cold climates are far higher, and hot climates are lower.
https://storage.googleapis.com/geotab-s ... index.html

It's reasonable to expect at least 10 years out of a replacement battery pack before it gets to the current level. At that rate, the battery is around $500/yr or $40/mth. You'll save more on electricity than the cost of gas, and there's no way you could get an EV at that price point. This is financially a very good proposal for a car.

If someone wants newer features or larger range, no doubt, there's a ton of cars out there with plenty more to offer. But the degradation is not nearly as bad as you make it out to be, unless you live somewhere very hot.
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
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Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

Lothsahn
Posts: 621
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: 24 kWh Battery replacement cost back down to $5500

Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:28 am

SalisburySam wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:07 am
I wonder if this price decrease is in any way designed to counter 3rd-party battery replacements. Fenix is proposing a $6K purchase option in addition to a couple of subscription options. A $5500 Nissan battery becomes a much more desirable option, especially if battery chemistry is improved over the original.

My 2012 SL now shows 9 capacity bars but will only get about 30 miles total to VLBW on a 100% charge. If I were to opt for the battery replacement, I’d be adding, say, $6k to the capital cost of the vehicle. That, plus the $40k I paid originally, makes my 2012 a $46k cost item. For the 13,500 miles I’ve driven it in the last 8 years, that’s about $3.41/mi not including electricity, registration, annual taxes, maintenance, and insurance. Cab fare would have been much less. Worse, after the battery replacement I’d have a vehicle that is likely worth about $3k or less. Worse yet, my TCU failed earlier this year, a $1200 ticket to replace. So now, no connectivity, no pre-heating or pre-cooling, etc., etc.

The net of all the above is that I think my 2012 has reached the point of throwing good money after bad. I very much like the car but perhaps the major cash injections it would require to be new again are just not worth it for me.

So good on Nissan for the price reduction, but I believe I’ll pass at this point.
There's no way your leaf is worth $3k after battery replacement. I sold a 7-bar leaf for $3750 a couple months ago. I also bought a 12-bar 2011 which had cosmetic damage from multiple accidents for $5k. A more realistic price for a mint, low mileage 2012 with a brand new battery is in the realm of $7-8k.
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

LeftieBiker
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Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 24 kWh Battery replacement cost back down to $5500

Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:47 am

There's no way your leaf is worth $3k after battery replacement. I sold a 7-bar leaf for $3750 a couple months ago. I also bought a 12-bar 2011 which had cosmetic damage from multiple accidents for $5k. A more realistic price for a mint, low mileage 2012 with a brand new battery is in the realm of $7-8k.

Agreed. $3k is more like the value before the new battery. It's more like:

* value of car now: $3k.

* cost of new battery: $5500 with labor, and with core returned.

* value of car with new battery: $8k.

Not bad for a near-mint 2012 with a new battery, and only about $500 investment loss. As noted the original purchase cost is now essentially meaningless. With very rare exceptions, buying a new car is not an investment - it's a guaranteed loss.
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2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
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PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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