Guidelines for replacement battery SOH

[rvogn801]

I have a 2013 SL, battery has 28 miles of range left, and the L2 charging does not work. 28 miles isn't enough for how I want to use it. 60 miles of range would be enough.

From what research I have done, a 2015 SL would have a compatible 24 kWh battery and PDM. A 24 kWh battery with 70% SOH would have the range I need. Functioning L2 charging would allow me to charge at local shopping centers and parks, adding to the fun.

I know everyone is different, and my "this make sense" might be different from what anyone else would do. But I would appreciate any and all opinions:

1. If I could find a 2015 SL 24 kWh battery and PDM with 80% SOH for $3,000, is it reasonably likely that the improved replacement battery chemistry (as opposed to my original 2012 battery) would keep the range up at least okay (say it only degrades to 60% SOH) for four years? If I could purchase the battery/PDM for $3,000 and pay $1,000 for install, that would be about $1,000 a year for four years, if I am fortunate and the battery SOH doesn't degrade too quickly.

2. Does my $1,000 amount to replace the battery and PDM make sense? There are shops in my area that replace Prius batteries that I am going to contact to ask if they would also work with a Leaf. I am willing to take the car 200 miles or so to a shop if needed.

3. Is there a "Sweet Spot" as far as replacement battery model year, battery kWh, or other factors that I should take into account?

4. Does it make any sense to buy a hot climate replacement battery? Am I much more likely to get the reasonably slow degradation I need if I use parts from a cool climate car?

5. Let's say my current 2013 SL with 28 miles of range is worth $2,000, and a cool climate 2015 SL with low mileage, good tires and the same features I like on my 2013 is $10,000. So the upgrade cost is $8,000. Are there reasons besides time and risking buying defective/fast degrading parts that I should not fix the old car, but just move on to a newer 2015/2016/2017 model? I don't like the idea of junking a car that I like to drive, but at some point it will be time to move on

Thanks for your help, and if I have missed threads that already address these issues, I would appreciate your pointing me to them.

 

[cornbinder89]

Well, you've got two problems, The charger issue (which is more likely the EVSE as Level 1 and level 2 used the same onboard charger).
I think you need to asses your priorities, because they will effect which way you go. It is not going to be solely a cost choice.
Buying any used car is buying the unknown, Fix what you have is putting money into something you do know.
There are many routes to get what you want, and the price is all over the map.
I don't know where you live, so I can't say how far afield you may need to go for some of the options.
1) you could look for a later model car (wreck) and salvage the battery. Problem is: condition of said battery unknown, cost of purchase unknown
2) you could buy a used later car, and sell yours. Again you'll not know any and all problems until you have some time in with the new,used car. Selling your may be difficult with the range it now has and might not bring what you hope/expect.
3) You can have a "rebuilt" battery installed, from someone like Green Tec and get some reassurance that it will last for a given time. You can choose the KWh of the pack, but prices rise steeply for the bigger packs and require a Can Bridge be installed.
4) You can buy a new 40Kwh battery pack from a shop in the "leaf repair network" and continue on. again requires a CAN bridge also
None of these address the Level 2 charging issue which may make a bigger battery no better than a small one if you can't recharge it between trips.
So, unless you choose the 2nd option, I would 1st look into why you can't Level 2 charge. All the other options would need that resolved to be practical.
Many early car don't have Level 3 charging capability (DC fast charging) so that isn't likely to be an option on your current vehicle but could be if you replace it.
Prices are going to vary, and the full cost of the first two options are going to be hard to pin down. The latter two options you can call the companies and get a quote which should be fairly accurate.

 

[cornbinder89]

Also, Why are you changing the PDM? there should be no need. I don't remember when the cut-off for changer in the rear vs. in the front. If yours is the front mounted PDM/OBC then I could see why, but since Level 1 charging uses the very same charger, it would have to be a very rare fault that would allow level one charging and not Level 2 for it to be the OBC

 

[rvogn801]

From my research I understood the PDM

Well, you've got two problems, The charger issue (which is more likely the EVSE as Level 1 and level 2 used the same onboard charger).
I think you need to asses your priorities, because they will effect which way you go. It is not going to be solely a cost choice.
Buying any used car is buying the unknown, Fix what you have is putting money into something you do know.
There are many routes to get what you want, and the price is all over the map.
I don't know where you live, so I can't say how far afield you may need to go for some of the options.
1) you could look for a later model car (wreck) and salvage the battery. Problem is: condition of said battery unknown, cost of purchase unknown
2) you could buy a used later car, and sell yours. Again you'll not know any and all problems until you have some time in with the new,used car. Selling your may be difficult with the range it now has and might not bring what you hope/expect.
3) You can have a "rebuilt" battery installed, from someone like Green Tec and get some reassurance that it will last for a given time. You can choose the KWh of the pack, but prices rise steeply for the bigger packs and require a Can Bridge be installed.
4) You can buy a new 40Kwh battery pack from a shop in the "leaf repair network" and continue on. again requires a CAN bridge also
None of these address the Level 2 charging issue which may make a bigger battery no better than a small one if you can't recharge it between trips.
So, unless you choose the 2nd option, I would 1st look into why you can't Level 2 charge. All the other options would need that resolved to be practical.
Many early car don't have Level 3 charging capability (DC fast charging) so that isn't likely to be an option on your current vehicle but could be if you replace it.
Prices are going to vary, and the full cost of the first two options are going to be hard to pin down. The latter two options you can call the companies and get a quote which should be fairly accurate.

Hi Cornbinder, thanks for your reply. I'm in KC. I've driven through Lyman. I'm a big fan of your area's Rail-To-Trails bike paths.

1) you could look for a later model car (wreck) and salvage the battery. Problem is: condition of said battery unknown, cost of purchase unknown ---I'm setting a goal of $3,000 to purchase and transport a complete, running, wrecked car. I would check the SOH of the wrecked car battery before purchasing. The idea is that the wrecked car would have all the parts I need to resolve the battery, and OBC issues.
2) you could buy a used later car, and sell yours. Again you'll not know any and all problems until you have some time in with the new,used car. Selling your may be difficult with the range it now has and might not bring what you hope/expect. --- I can also hold out for a bit on purchasing a replacement. My workplace less than 10 miles away, and I can charge L1 or L2. So even with the broken down battery, I can still drive the car most days.

3) You can have a "rebuilt" battery installed, from someone like Green Tec and get some reassurance that it will last for a given time. You can choose the KWh of the pack, but prices rise steeply for the bigger packs and require a Can Bridge be installed.--- This is a good lead. The last time I checked Green Tec's website they didn't have any Leaf batteries listed. A replacement 24 kWh battery is $6,500, with 70% SOH. I will call them this AM to see if will provide a price to install a used battery that I bring them.

4) You can buy a new 40Kwh battery pack from a shop in the "leaf repair network" and continue on. again requires a CAN bridge also
None of these address the Level 2 charging issue which may make a bigger battery no better than a small one if you can't recharge it between trips. --- With the budget I'm trying to stay in, I will likely be staying with a 24 or 30 kWh battery.
So, unless you choose the 2nd option, I would 1st look into why you can't Level 2 charge. All the other options would need that resolved to be practical. --- I will trouble shoot the L2 charging issue. A neighbor let me try his EVSE, and it would not charge. The neighbor's Ariya had been at the dealer for weeks waiting for a new motor. The neighbor recently told me that EVSE was disabled due to a timer issue, so the test with his EVSE needs to be re-done to be meaningful. I brought up replacing the PDM because I thought the 2013 OBC was in the PDM. If I can't get my L2 charging to work, I will start a new Topic to get more information on OBC replacement.

Many early car don't have Level 3 charging capability (DC fast charging) so that isn't likely to be an option on your current vehicle but could be if you replace it. --- I have a ICE car for trips out of town, I don't see needing Level 3 for a few years.

 

[cornbinder89]

With Green Tec having a KC shop, you could pop around and talk to them in person.
I don't know when the changed from rear to front OBC, My '15 is front charge, it might have been '13 when the change was made.
Given that the Level 1 and level 2 share all the same wires, on the car end of things, it would be odd that the OBC could function on the lower voltage and not on the higher voltage. Given that all the same cabling is used, it is fairly safe to assume that the internal power path in the charger is the same. That is why I'd want to be sure before going through the work of changing the OBC.
There is a diode that can fail and prevent changing, but I can't see it allowing level one and not two, so don't think that is the case.
I is going to be a personal choice, all I can suggest is get as much info as you can before plunking down cash.
I have seen some wrecked later cars that should have a 30 or 40Kwh say in the fine print that the battery is 24 Kwh. so either someone swapped batterys with the wreck before putting up for sale (in which case, not only would you be buying a used 24 Kwh pack but likely a fairly well degraded one at that). So buyer beware! IIRC this was on a Copart sale.
Just me, but I would consider option 3 or 4 if I knew my car was in good condition and liked it alot. Otherwise I think option 2 would be next in line, but would hold onto my old car until I had some seat time in the replacement to really assess its condition.
I found Leafs pop up in Columbia and Lawrence (both collage towns) fair often when I was looking for my Leaf.

 

[cornbinder89]

Is this what your looking for:
https://www.greentecauto.com/hybrid...ery-pack-and-modules-assembly-gen-2-2013-2015
And while were at it:

https://leafrepairnetwork.com/

 

[MikeinPA]

L2 charging does not work.

If L1 does work, and it is the stock appliance that came with the car, you may be able to do the diode fix. I had to do that one of 2013s so far.

https://mynissanleaf.com/threads/diode-fixed.24696/

 

[cornbinder89]

I don't think the diode can allow it to charge on Level 1 but not Level 2. Both ways charging use the same wires and components. I happy to be corrected if some documentation would show that.

 

[rvogn801]

@MikeinPA thanks for adding that. I had looked at the diode idea a while back, and I will keep that on the list. My next step is to try a different EVSE. A neighbor offered his, but the roads are a snowy mess this week, and I don't want to make a mess where his wife parks her Ariya.

@cornbinder89 from what I have read and recall, the to charge L2 there is at least one additional pilot circuit check that is not included with the L1 check. So the diode can affect L2, but L1 can still work.

 

[rvogn801]

Is this what your looking for:
https://www.greentecauto.com/hybrid...ery-pack-and-modules-assembly-gen-2-2013-2015
And while were at it:

https://leafrepairnetwork.com/

Thanks for the links. It is good to see Green Tec supporting the Leaf. But for $6500 for a 24 kWh, I would like them to include a little better warranty and initial SOH. I'm still headed down the path of finding a salvage yard Leaf battery to swap in. There won't be any warranty with it, but I'm trying to stay in budget.

I didn't see any Leaf Repair Network near us in the list. I spoke to guy last night who does all kind of repair work, and he said he would look at a video on a DIY battery swap. He hasn't turned away a project yet, so I think he's my guy for when I find a battery to put in.

 

[w7gz]

You might be better off paying the $6500 for a known-good battery with at least some warranty. I've done 3 battery swaps, and was unlucky on one of them. It was an auction 2012 showing 12 bars. What I didn't know when I bought the car was that Nissan had done a BMS reset to try to fix its problem. It didn't, but it transformed a 7-bar battery into 12 bars on the display. It took a couple of months of driving around for the BMS to return to 7 bars. I eventually sold the car because I needed more range.

 

[cornbinder89]

You might be better off paying the $6500 for a known-good battery with at least some warranty. I've done 3 battery swaps, and was unlucky on one of them. It was an auction 2012 showing 12 bars. What I didn't know when I bought the car was that Nissan had done a BMS reset to try to fix its problem. It didn't, but it transformed a 7-bar battery into 12 bars on the display. It took a couple of months of driving around for the BMS to return to 7 bars. I eventually sold the car because I needed more range.

My worries, would be what you found. Hard to know what you are getting. I know I will not be doing anything myself, at least I think I know that. In years gone by, I did all my own work, but my body is no longer able to do what I once could.
When I bought my Leaf, I also bought a tow dolly (2nd hand) so if need arises I can move it myself. I bought my car in the twin cities, and needed to get it to western Iowa, renting equipment to do the job, cost about the same as buying a tow dolly.
Right now, my Leaf will do what I bought to do. Given how big a job it is to do battery swaps, unless you have a well equipped shop, I'd want some recourse if it doesn't work out as promised.
The Leaf battery pack was designed to be broken down to cell packs of 4 cells, called modules, If I were younger and had the shop to do it in, I would replace weak modules with better ones. The labor to do that is high, so not something you want to do repeatedly. Ideally you could buy the modules and assemble a new pack, in practice they aren't enough made to cover the need from Nissan, and the LRN is the only place I know of supplying new cells. Time will tell if the new cells meet or exceed the OEM ones, but at least you have some recourse for a defective cell.
Used packs like Green Tec sells, aren't a whole lot cheaper than new from LRN. If you are dumping in a 40Kwh pack, the difference isn't enough that I think I would go used. The 24Kwh packs (like for like, in my case) are 1/2 the price of a new 40Kwh pack, but the likely useful life will be less and the range will never meet what a new 24 Kwh pack would, so you'd be spending the money to bump back up to the 60 mile range.
For me, the trip to KC or to Madison or Twin Cities, are all out of reach for the range of my car, so the tow dolly would be used. If I am spending that kind of cash, the distance to the shop isn't a major factor unless we are talking 1000's of miles on a tow dolly. In that case shipping the car on a commercial carrier makes more sense.
One other thing, working with battery packs should only be done with the correct HV tools and PPE. Yes I'm sure there are those that use regular hand tools and no PPE and survive, less than a second of inattention or a socket that slips off a bolt, and your dead, not worth the risk.

 

[rvogn801]

You might be better off paying the $6500 for a known-good battery with at least some warranty. I've done 3 battery swaps, and was unlucky on one of them. It was an auction 2012 showing 12 bars. What I didn't know when I bought the car was that Nissan had done a BMS reset to try to fix its problem. It didn't, but it transformed a 7-bar battery into 12 bars on the display. It took a couple of months of driving around for the BMS to return to 7 bars. I eventually sold the car because I needed more range.

@w7gz:

(1) Regarding the auction 2012 car showing 12 bars: were you able to use Leaf Spy to get an idea of that battery's SOH? Is Leaf Spy simply reading the BMS data, so the BMS reset would have caused Leaf Spy to report a very high percentage SOH? Do we have any other diagnostic tools besides the number of bars showing, and Leaf Spy, to get an idea of battery health for a battery donor car that will turn on but cannot be driven?

(2) Do you have an idea on the cost of the three swaps you have done? If you can help I'm looking for a real world value here... stories of "A electrical engineer/EV tech buddy helped me swap batteries one afternoon in his shop with a lift" are cool, but wouldn't help us to know what a battery swap might cost. If you did it yourself, about how many hours? Did you use a lift? If you paid a shop, what do you think an everyday cost should be? If the shop(s) did it too cheap, or overpriced it, that may be a one time thing.

Thanks!

 

[rvogn801]

For me, the trip to KC or to Madison or Twin Cities, are all out of reach for the range of my car, so the tow dolly would be used. If I am spending that kind of cash, the distance to the shop isn't a major factor unless we are talking 1000's of miles on a tow dolly. In that case shipping the car on a commercial carrier makes more sense.

I don't like renting, so a tow dolly might be in my future. The worst part of renting for me is tow vehicle qualification. My Sienna AWD has the best brakes and stability when towing of any vehicle I have owned. But the rental yards say: "You need a pickup to tow our wood chipper" or whatever I'm trying to get for the weekend.

What I have trouble with is trying to keep all of these towed vehicles in decent tires. Trailer tires should be replaced every 7-10 years, and it's either spend the money or risk an issue on the side of the road. If I could find a tow dolly that took the same bolt pattern wheels as my trailer, that would be cool. Then if I had a long trip I could swap on reasonably new tires.

 

[cornbinder89]

. The worst part of renting for me is tow vehicle qualification. My Sienna AWD has the best brakes and stability when towing of any vehicle I have owned. But the rental yards say: "You need a pickup to tow our wood chipper" or whatever I'm trying to get for the weekend.

Exactly what we ran into. Towing with a pick-up and a bumper pull (like a chipper or a tow dolly) puts the weight in the wrong place and is not safe, but U haul will say your van can't tow the same thing with more weight over the rear axle.
We towed my Leaf back with my brothers Sienna, and it did fine. A couple of months before we pulled 3800Lbs on my single axle trailer and another 900 lbs over the rear axle of the Sienna.
My dolly is the type used by RV owners. It has 5 on 4.5 bolt pattern. One option available is electric or hyd brakes. I will be adding electric brakes to mine at some point. My single axle trailer was ordered with electric brakes and I feel, while not legally required on trailer of that size, make towing much safer.
There are people on Facebook that will rent the one I have for $50/day. I figured a used one will come in handy, and wasn't too much money. I have the room to store it inside (they get stolen) and I figured if the Leaf or any other car broke down on the road, it would pay to have it around.
As I said, the cost of the used one, and the cost of renting a truck and dolly from U haul were fairly close in price,
Iowa doesn't register tow dollies so no registration fees. Some states do, and that may not apply to your situation.
The Leaf, with is battery between the axles under the car, makes for a fairly even weight distribution, and good towing. And well below the rating of the tow dolly.

 

[w7gz]

@w7gz:

(1) Regarding the auction 2012 car showing 12 bars: were you able to use Leaf Spy to get an idea of that battery's SOH? Is Leaf Spy simply reading the BMS data, so the BMS reset would have caused Leaf Spy to report a very high percentage SOH? Do we have any other diagnostic tools besides the number of bars showing, and Leaf Spy, to get an idea of battery health for a battery donor car that will turn on but cannot be driven?

(2) Do you have an idea on the cost of the three swaps you have done? If you can help I'm looking for a real world value here... stories of "A electrical engineer/EV tech buddy helped me swap batteries one afternoon in his shop with a lift" are cool, but wouldn't help us to know what a battery swap might cost. If you did it yourself, about how many hours? Did you use a lift? If you paid a shop, what do you think an everyday cost should be? If the shop(s) did it too cheap, or overpriced it, that may be a one time thing.

Thanks!

1) No, generally you cannot use your LeafSpy on an auction vehicle - even in the rare case that you can get access to the car, the 12V battery is often discharged by the time the car appears at auction. LeafSpy reads the data out of the BMS, and a reset causes all the historical data to be erased, as if the car were brand new. Once the historical data is gone, I'm unaware of any other way to gauge battery health other than driving the car to see how far you get. If you can charge it and see individual cell voltages in the pack, that could be useful.

2) My battery swaps, back around 2017-8, cost around $4-5K each, what with buying the wreck, paying auction fees, and transporting the carcass home. I haven't checked recent auction prices. Swapping a battery takes me an afternoon in my carport, using common mechanic's tools, furniture dollies, etc. I don't have a lift. I am an EE, but I don't think those skills were required for the swaps. The alternative to doing a swap was buying another new/used Leaf. And to me definitely worthwhile, because In 2024 these same cars and batteries are still my daily drivers.

The commercial guys have their prices, and they are usually posted on their websites. I think $12-15K for a battery swap/upgrade is typical, and you get a warranty. They have to pay the price I paid for the donor, labor for their guys and rent for the shop, put some money aside for future warranty service, and then make a profit at it. That's why it costs a lot more than me doing the swap.

 

[murrayc]

We have just completed this process of Nissan buying back our 2017 leaf rather than replace the battery as they should have. They're giving us all that we paid for the leaf in cash and taking it back. I would have rather had the battery. The LEMON law argument that they put forth and what they owe is specious. It doesn't fall under the Lemon Law. They're just conveniently using that. At first they wanted to charge us a usage fee based on mileage. Crazy! I have a lot of thoughts about this. I would have preferred a new battery on our 2017. We wound up buying a tesla with the money. Easier but not happy about it.